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What country / ethnic group has been most successful?

Author:	codemage [ Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:19 am ]
Post subject:	What country / ethnic group has been most successful?
We're not starting a racist flame war, and we aren't going to have a poll. Inspired by the interesting debate over Indian history... I'm curious whether we can debate the historical / social merits of various ethnic groups. This is somewhat akin to the UN's "best country in the world" ranking, except I don't expect we'll crown a champion. I realise that race or nationality is not a determinant factor for success in and of itself. However, the living environment; the social views and cultural values of a group often inhibit or ensure the achievement of their goals. To keep it honest, you can not vote for your own ethnicity or country of heritage. You must justify your answer. For example: Saudi Arabians. ------------------ With only one national resource, they've built up an incredible service, commerce & finance economy. They own an impressive amount of the world economy. They have an excellent social welfare system including health & education. They have all sorts of bonuses, grants and bursaries for education, getting married, having children, etc. Given that their region is politically unstable, they've done quite well for themselves in carving out a peaceful corner of arabia.

Author:	apomb [ Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:23 am ]
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[EDIT] japan so efficient

Author:	Mazer [ Thu Apr 06, 2006 9:21 am ]
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CompWiz333 wrote: eer, wheres your justification? ... are you nominating the Saudis and saying so because they are arabian? lol His justification was in the following paragraph. The one that consisted of multiple sentences. The ones that were made up of more than two words each.

Author:	apomb [ Thu Apr 06, 2006 9:41 am ]
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hah, wow ... i must have thought that was his sig and mazer ... it just goes to show that two words suffice

Author:	djlenny_3000 [ Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:23 pm ]
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i would say recently the UAE because of the money they are making from oil and etc. i visited dubai, and it was WOW , so hats off to them, oh and in case someone believes im voting for my background, im actually jewish

Author:	Amailer [ Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:58 pm ]
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Japan!

Author:	Dan [ Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:04 pm ]
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Persoanly i find this topic a bit to much like my race/cultucher is better then yours but for the sake of arugment.... I think this realy depends on what we juge successful as. If it is just based on money and power, whould it not have to be the USA. Being the curent super power of the world. But i do not think this alone should be a jugement of succesfullness, i think other factors like the social sturcher, clutcher and peoplep of the country/ethic gorup should also be takeing in to acount. But then how dose one juge somthing so realtive and difrent as clutercher over another one? I think the awaser is simpley that you don't. I blive that all ehtick gorups have there own postive aspects that no other group has and each are unique. So i do not blive one is "best" or more succesfull then another in thess terms.

Author:	Tony [ Thu Apr 06, 2006 3:00 pm ]
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I'd have to vote against Japan. Sure they have sushi, anime, and cool gadgets, but they also have crazy work hours. From my understanding it's not uncommon to find someone working for 60 hours a week (without claiming over-time). I believe there were studies that concluded that North American workers are actually more productive than Japanese due to better working conditions. Though really we should be asking Martin about all the inside information

Author:	md [ Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:39 pm ]
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This definitely seems like a bad idea... I don't consider middle east to be a very successful area of the world; because tehy only have one resource. It just so happens that it is rather highly in demand and so they have been able to make some money. Were the oil industry to dry up much of the middle east economy would instantly go up in smoke. Being Canadian and all I'd have to say that Canada is the best country. A wide range of natural resources, an industrious population; and to top it all off we are one of if not the most respected nations in the world. If we're talking historical greatness then I really gotta go with great britan here. I mean, controlling 25% of the physical world, and significantly more of it's wealth seems like it might be a good thing.

Author:	MysticVegeta [ Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:22 pm ]
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I would say, lets just close this thread because sooner it will convert into one of the threads I posted (not gonna say which one)

Author:	rizzix [ Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:00 pm ]
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Cornflake wrote: Being Canadian and all I'd have to say that Canada is the best country. A wide range of natural resources, an industrious population; and to top it all off we are one of if not the most respected nations in the world. He explicitly said don't comment about your own country. Cornflake wrote: If we're talking historical greatness then I really gotta go with great britan here. I mean, controlling 25% of the physical world, and significantly more of it's wealth seems like it might be a good thing. They were great conqurers, but that's not the deciding factor for a great empire / country. OK they were huge, but their own people (those who were conquered) didn't like it. If your own people are dissatisfied, then you are not really all that great.

Author:	chrispminis [ Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:41 pm ]
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@ rizzix, what makes a great country is subjective. Anyways I am a Chinese Canadian so I can't vote for the two countries I would, if anyone at compsci isnt canadian wanna nominate us? lol not much hope, we are a ".ca" site. Anyways, I have two opinions. I agree with Dan, that the U.S. of A. i the most successful, as of now. Nobody can deny their success, in science, medicine, military, and every other sector you can think of. Great people have come out of USA, and more will come. Another nomination, is Germany! Sure they have that whole WW1, WW2 thing, but you know, they are a pretty succesful people. They have produced some of the greatest physicists, composers, etc.

Author:	Martin [ Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:56 pm ]
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CompWiz333 wrote: [EDIT] japan so efficient Japan and efficient in the same sentence? Hahahahahahaha. Good one CompWiz333. National debt at 150% of the GDP and the least productive work force of the G8. You're quite a joker. Maybe if Toyota were a country... Although obviously the US has been the most successful up to now (half of the money in the world is in America, which has 5% of the world's population), my vote for the most human progress goes to Sweden. They seem to be on the front of human rights and welfare. My hat's off to them. Honourable mention goes to China. In spite of their very questionable politics, they manage to do a lot of good. They feed a sixth of the world's population on only 7% of its farm land. Then again, breathing the air in Shanghai is apparently the equivalent of smoking a pack of cigarettes a day...

Author:	Tony [ Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:34 pm ]
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Martin wrote: In spite of their very questionable politics, they manage to do a lot of good. Yes, like inflating World of Warcraft's economy by selling gold over eBay.. oh wait. Switzerland is pretty awesome - it has Geneva and cheese.

Author:	apomb [ Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:54 pm ]
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i ... well ... uum ... damn ... probly should have gone with canada ... uum thats the end of me using stereotypes. isnt MY face red! .... this thread really isnt showing my best side.

Author:	Martin [ Thu Apr 06, 2006 9:42 pm ]
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CompWiz333 wrote: i ... well ... uum ... damn ... probly should have gone with canada ... uum thats the end of me using stereotypes. isnt MY face red! .... this thread really isnt showing my best side. Haha, I'm just giving you a hard time, don't worry about it. Japan is an incredible place.

Author:	chrispminis [ Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:31 pm ]
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Re: China 7% of farmland makes a LOT of rice I <3 rice lol. Re: Sweden Yeah, used to be my childhood fav for some reason, Norway's up there for human rights, and is the teacher's pet of the UN. Re: Switzerland Yeah, cheese is always good, plus they've been THE neutral people, which is cool, if you like neutral and cheese. New nomination, GREECE! So many philosophers, and great scientists came from greece during the antiquity. They were considered more cultured and advanced than medieval Europe, and inspired the Renaissance. Their knowledge of science was, for a long time, the unrivaled except by that of the Arabs and the Chinese.

Author:	md [ Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:05 pm ]
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I'm changing my nationality to newfoundlandese so I can renominate Canada Switzerland may be neutral, but that's because of georaphy and money mostly. If it weren't for the shere difficulty in invading a country of mountains they would have been involved in many more wars. Sweden is definitely also one of the better places to be living; it's cold... but at least there things like rights and common sense seem to be in good supply.

Author:	codemage [ Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:59 am ]
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Sweden also has a fantastic social net, and pretty much everyone there speaks english. If you've ever been to Switzerland, you'd realize fairly quickly that all the money there is Saudi. About half of the major banks in Geneva have arabic subtitles on their signs... quite a few are arabic only. I never would've expected China to show up here... but that's an interesting fact!

Author:	chrispminis [ Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:56 pm ]
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Teehee, I was a newfie for four years Great place, loved it. So since I am pretty much a newfie, and newfoundland is pretty much not part of Canada, i nominate Canada.

Author:	MysticVegeta [ Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:00 am ]
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I would have to go with China or Japan, due to their extreme markets in variable items

Author:	1of42 [ Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:55 pm ]
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I would go with the UAE. Despite their only having 1 resource (oil), in 25 years, they've mnaged to build the most significant cosmopolitan country in the Middle East. They are actively planning for when oil eventually runs out, and should be well-equipped to confront that issue when it occurs. They have an impressive social welfare program, gerat standard of living, and despite the slight restrictions on freedom of expression that come from living in a autocratic (ish) theocracy, they've managed to build a very free, expressive society. That, and every single ruler of the UAE so far has made steps towards building the country into a strong democracy. Small steps, maybe, but the intent is there nonetheless. (I'm Canadian of Scottish descent, just in case anyone is wondering)

Author:	Martin [ Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:02 am ]
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I think the thing with Japan that a lot of people forget is that not even 70 years ago they were under the rule of a completely totalitarian government. Now, they have obviously made great progress since then - they are the second biggest economy in the world after only the USA - but there are still remnants of their not so bright past that they must overcome.

Author:	codemage [ Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:51 am ]
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...like their ongoing spat with China? (The PM visiting the shrine to war criminals et all). What's the public sentiment there regarding the China situation, Martin?

Author:	MysticVegeta [ Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:26 am ]
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Martin wrote: I think the thing with Japan that a lot of people forget is that not even 70 years ago they were under the rule of a completely totalitarian government. Now, they have obviously made great progress since then - they are the second biggest economy in the world after only the USA - but there are still remnants of their not so bright past that they must overcome. yeah I agree. Also, india got its independance around 59 years earlier, they have come a long way too, but japan certainly pwns everyone lol, too many hard workers, with 1 day weekend lol.

Author:	Martin [ Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:23 pm ]
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codemage wrote: ...like their ongoing spat with China? (The PM visiting the shrine to war criminals et all). Wink What's the public sentiment there regarding the China situation, Martin? Although obviously there are exceptions, I get the vibe that the general feeling is "Okay China, we know what we did, you know what we did, but we're way too proud (ashamed?) to admit it, so let's just forget about it, okay?" A lot of the stuff around World War 2 and China is pretty hush. I mean, for one thing it's hard to get tax payers to pay for publications saying that basically they were the bad guys and did some absolutely awful stuff, but the other thing I think is that a lot of people had grandparents and even uncles and aunts who were killed by this war, so they would not only be vilifying Japan, but they'd also be vilifying people's relatives. Given time though I think that Japan will realize that there are things that have to be said. MysticVegeta wrote: Martin wrote: I think the thing with Japan that a lot of people forget is that not even 70 years ago they were under the rule of a completely totalitarian government. Now, they have obviously made great progress since then - they are the second biggest economy in the world after only the USA - but there are still remnants of their not so bright past that they must overcome. yeah I agree. Also, india got its independance around 59 years earlier, they have come a long way too, but japan certainly pwns everyone lol, too many hard workers, with 1 day weekend lol. No, Japan has too many workers that work too many hours and don't get enough done. People are expected to work 60+ hours a week, so they're there for 60+ hours a week, which they spend most of talking and making other people unproductive. There are exceptions to this - Toyota, Epson and other multinational corporations are textbook examples of what a good company should be like - but as a whole, the Japanese work force is notoriously unproductive.

Author:	MysticVegeta [ Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:27 pm ]
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oh lol then why dont they just cut the unproductive hours and make it < 50 or do productive work in 60 hours, man then Japan would totally pwn !

Author:	chrispminis [ Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:44 pm ]
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It's cuz 60 hours is the standard. In the job market, employers won't hire someone who will only work 50 hours when there are 100's of willing people who work 60 hours. It's unproductive, but it's hard to turn the tables once it's habit.

Author:	Tony [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:30 am ]
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ah, but that's fault on company's HR.. it's not about work hours, but production per hour. so you could hire a worker who will spend 60 hours in an office, producing 6 units of value. or you could hire a worker who will spend only 50 hours in an office, but because he/she doesn't instantly burn out, 7 units of value are produced. Wait a minute.. we get more productivity and have to pay for less work hours? wow! That's why I disaprove of such strong cultural holds.

Author:	Martin [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:39 am ]
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The problem is also largely that having too much time on your hands leads to bad time management. If you have 40 hours of work to do and 60 hours to do it in, it leads to procrastination.

Author:	codemage [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:15 am ]
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My dad is a factory worker for a major auto company. Some of the employees work on a quota system (where they need to produce x number of parts per day). They stay as long as it takes to finish the quota, and then leave. The company pays them for the whole day, regardless of how long it took them. Apparently, some workers are very efficient, and can do the whole job well (there are regular quality of work inspections) and leave after half a day. The company supports those who leave b/c they're not left standing around distracting everyone else.

Author:	Star [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:52 am ]
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Martin wrote: codemage wrote: ...like their ongoing spat with China? (The PM visiting the shrine to war criminals et all). Wink What's the public sentiment there regarding the China situation, Martin? Although obviously there are exceptions, I get the vibe that the general feeling is "Okay China, we know what we did, you know what we did, but we're way too proud (ashamed?) to admit it, so let's just forget about it, okay?" A lot of the stuff around World War 2 and China is pretty hush. I mean, for one thing it's hard to get tax payers to pay for publications saying that basically they were the bad guys and did some absolutely awful stuff, but the other thing I think is that a lot of people had grandparents and even uncles and aunts who were killed by this war, so they would not only be vilifying Japan, but they'd also be vilifying people's relatives. Given time though I think that Japan will realize that there are things that have to be said. MysticVegeta wrote: Martin wrote: I think the thing with Japan that a lot of people forget is that not even 70 years ago they were under the rule of a completely totalitarian government. Now, they have obviously made great progress since then - they are the second biggest economy in the world after only the USA - but there are still remnants of their not so bright past that they must overcome. yeah I agree. Also, india got its independance around 59 years earlier, they have come a long way too, but japan certainly pwns everyone lol, too many hard workers, with 1 day weekend lol. No, Japan has too many workers that work too many hours and don't get enough done. People are expected to work 60+ hours a week, so they're there for 60+ hours a week, which they spend most of talking and making other people unproductive. There are exceptions to this - Toyota, Epson and other multinational corporations are textbook examples of what a good company should be like - but as a whole, the Japanese work force is notoriously unproductive. Its easier to rebuild a country when your economy was utterly devastated by a war. And no, I don't think that Japan will ever admit to what they did during WWII or to China, publicly. Generations of Japanese are not being educated about their country's past atrocities (in contrast to Germany, which openly admits what happened during its past) and if they are too proud now, once more time has passed, there won't even be the few that feel shame. Attempting to buy power in the U.N. says a lot about the prevailing Japanese attitude. Anyways, to the real topic... since I can't pick the two that I want, I nominate England! They have a much better education system than Canada, their taxes make a lot more sense, and I personally like the weather.

Author:	codemage [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:27 am ]
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You'll find quite a bit of disagreement regarding whose school system is better. England's education system is almost entirely private (although private schools are called public schools... those silly blokes). The amount of money you have directly determines the quality of your education. There are public "state" schools for the very underprivileged, but they're generally quite shabby.

Author:	Andy [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:36 pm ]
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pfft both the british and north american education systems suck. I've attended school in china, england, and canada, and I gotta say, the chinese system works much better.

Author:	Star [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:00 pm ]
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Andy wrote: pfft both the british and north american education systems suck. I've attended school in china, england, and canada, and I gotta say, the chinese system works much better. So did I, Andy. The Chinese system is much more... rigorous in terms of workload, and generally forces better study habits. But in terms of quality, I'd say England is better. Just my opinion, based on my own experiences.

Author:	codemage [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:40 pm ]
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The Chinese system is similar to the Japanese system?

Author:	Star [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:01 pm ]
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codemage wrote: The Chinese system is similar to the Japanese system? I wouldn't know, never attended school in Japan.

Author:	MysticVegeta [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:19 pm ]
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Andy wrote: pfft both the british and north american education systems suck. I've attended school in china, england, and canada, and I gotta say, the chinese system works much better. yep, and its same with the indian education system, since I lived there for 13 years of my life rofl. Anyways, I think chinese and japanese have same level of high education, no?

Author:	person [ Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:38 pm ]
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well lets just say that the average highschool student leaves home before the sun rises, and returns home after the sun set and yes, the time they spent in between those time periods is at school (except lunch, they get like a 2hr break for that)

Author:	Martin [ Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:08 am ]
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The Japanese school system is pretty hardcore, but an increasing number of people here are pushing to get it changed. A lot of people even send their children to cram schools - school after school - and people get a ton of homework to do. One of the big criticisms of it is that the focus is largely on memorization at the expense of critical thinking and problem solving skills. Also, since the bubble of Japan, Inc. burst, students no longer have this promise of guaranteed employment following university so they're not seeing the advantages to it. The biggest problem with the Japanese school system though is that they are running out of students. Deaths outnumber births in Japan due to the incredibly low birth rate, and as a result there are something like 600,000 fewer students in the system with each successive year. This has lead to teaching being a very unattractive job - assuming one teacher teaches 300 students, that's 2000 fewer jobs each year. The universities are apparently a lot more relaxed though, and Japan has the usual spread of schools and programs right up to some of the most elite programs in the world. There are some really good things about the system though. For one, they get very healthy school lunches for very cheap - maybe 100 yen (just under $1 Canadian), and there's a big emphasis on physical education. Also, there are no vending machines with coca-cola and potato chips and all of this adds up to very healthy students. I'll never understand the sailor uniforms though...

Author:	Andy [ Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:22 am ]
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person wrote: well lets just say that the average highschool student leaves home before the sun rises, and returns home after the sun set and yes, the time they spent in between those time periods is at school (except lunch, they get like a 2hr break for that) highschool? i was doing that in grade school. 7 am til 6 pm.

Author:	rizzix [ Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:45 pm ]
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And that's nice? IMHO I don't like it at all.

Author:	Martin [ Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:36 pm ]
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Andy wrote: person wrote: well lets just say that the average highschool student leaves home before the sun rises, and returns home after the sun set and yes, the time they spent in between those time periods is at school (except lunch, they get like a 2hr break for that) highschool? i was doing that in grade school. 7 am til 6 pm. But do you feel like you're at a competitive advantage due to that?

Author:	Andy [ Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:44 pm ]
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nod unless the western education system, the chinese schooling forced me to be keen

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