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 Why Java sucks
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ecookman




PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:00 pm   Post subject: RE:Why Java sucks

I do agree that Java does have flaws and is quite the speed hog and i don't really like it myself, but one word
Minecraft.
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md




PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:45 pm   Post subject: RE:Why Java sucks

Minecraft is actually seemingly very poorly implemented. While I initially didn't like Java all that much it's grown on me and recently I've been working on a project that does 3D rendering in java and well... it blows Minecraft away performance wise.
DemonWasp




PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:47 pm   Post subject: Re: RE:Why Java sucks

md @ Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:45 pm wrote:
Minecraft is actually seemingly very poorly implemented. While I initially didn't like Java all that much it's grown on me and recently I've been working on a project that does 3D rendering in java and well... it blows Minecraft away performance wise.


This was also my feeling about Minecraft. Considering how simple the scenes are in Minecraft, they render amazingly slowly. There's no reason for a game like that to run as slowly as it does -- on my underpowered laptop (8400GS), Portal plays visibly better than Minecraft, despite being vastly more difficult to render.
mirhagk




PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:09 pm   Post subject: Re: Why Java sucks

102jon @ Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:40 am wrote:
So you mean pascal, not python.


Ya sorry, sometimes I'm dumb
mirhagk




PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:11 pm   Post subject: Re: RE:Why Java sucks

DemonWasp @ Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:47 pm wrote:
md @ Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:45 pm wrote:
Minecraft is actually seemingly very poorly implemented. While I initially didn't like Java all that much it's grown on me and recently I've been working on a project that does 3D rendering in java and well... it blows Minecraft away performance wise.


This was also my feeling about Minecraft. Considering how simple the scenes are in Minecraft, they render amazingly slowly. There's no reason for a game like that to run as slowly as it does -- on my underpowered laptop (8400GS), Portal plays visibly better than Minecraft, despite being vastly more difficult to render.


To be honest it feels as if notch doesn't really work on the game. Like not that much gets done in a weekly update compared to how much you could do in a week if it was your full time job (considering the fact he's making millions, he should be putting a full 40 hours a week into it).

He has to not be following proper OOP style if it takes him a while to incorporate new things, a proper OOP style game is very easy to add new creatures/blocks/items without having to do much work.
SmokeMonster




PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:46 am   Post subject: Re: RE:Why Java sucks

ecookman @ Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:00 pm wrote:
I do agree that Java does have flaws and is quite the speed hog and i don't really like it myself


It is 2011, can we please put this myth to rest? Look up the many benchmarks on the web and you'd see that Java is hardly "slow" or a "speed hog". For most of the software that gets written in the world the language speed is largely irrelevant, use common sense data structures and algorithms and make sure they are an efficient solution for the problem you are trying to solve. If a language is still slow than perhaps you are choosing the wrong tool for the job. Java can hold its own but is not as fast as C/C++, that's true but ask yourself the question- do you really the slight extra speed of c/c++ for the problem you are trying to solve? It's like a single guy who buys a 6 bedroom house just because it's bigger eventhough he's never going to use all of it. And even if Java was slow, speed is hardly an excuse to dismiss an entire language; Ruby is MONSTROUSLY slow yet it works perfectly fine within its domain.
Kharybdis




PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:21 am   Post subject: RE:Why Java sucks

i still like java. >.<
mirhagk




PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:35 pm   Post subject: Re: RE:Why Java sucks

SmokeMonster @ Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:46 am wrote:
And even if Java was slow, speed is hardly an excuse to dismiss an entire language; Ruby is MONSTROUSLY slow yet it works perfectly fine within its domain.


I would like to disagree with this last point. I'm not saying Java is that slow (It's obviously slower, but most of the slowness comes from bad programmers rather than a bad language), but I am saying that slowness is a reason to dismiss an entire language. There are certain applications where speed doesn't matter, and ruby excels at doing those tasks, which is why ruby gets off the hook, but look at a language like Turing. Turing is immensely slow, and some would argue that it's a easy syntax and what not, so it's good as a learning language, however that point is debatable in and of itself (as many more languages become much more beginner friendly, with some IDE's even letting you use a library perfectly fine, even if you never used it before, with things like autosense), so it leaves Turing completely in the dark. Yes there are other problems with Turing, of course, but the biggest issue is just plain speed.
Insectoid




PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:32 am   Post subject: RE:Why Java sucks

Well, Turing is obscenely slow, but I'd not say that's its biggest issue. It's got limits. It isn't multi-platform (except through Wine or equivalent), it is closed-source and only has one compiler (the most recent of which doesn't work right) and isn't even supported anymore except by this site. It does have very easy-to-use graphics though, which is nice. Most people don't care about easy graphics as much as the advanced features available in other languages though. Java sucks. I hate using it. But it provides very simple cross-compatibility, since the same compiled code will run on damn near any machine with a JVM. That alone is worth so much to developers (especially web developers) that they will forgo otherwise better languages in favor of Java.

Turing hasn't got this benefit. Nobody is going to use Turing in a professional setting, because it lacks a lot of basic functionality and support. Nothing could convince someone to use it over Java or Actionscript or C++ because there are no real benefits.

Speed is NOT an excuse to dismiss an entire language. Languages deprecate when the number of downsides grows too large and other languages become more advanced. It is the sum of the faults that decides if the fate of the language (though of course, much slower than Turing is indeed enough reason to not use a language).

I feel like I'm repeating myself, or taking a very long time to explain a simple idea, so...that's all.
mirhagk




PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:51 pm   Post subject: RE:Why Java sucks

What I mean is that speed can definetly be the deciding factor, and perhaps even the only factor, unless the language has something else to make up for it. For instance without Java's cross-platformness, it would probably be in big trouble.

If I wanted to make a video game, (not a web based flash one, or an indie one, but an actual video game), I would not use Java, mostly because of it's speed.

Look at minecraft as an example, fortresscraft (a minecraft rip-off built using XNA), is intensely faster, with better graphics than minecraft, and why is this? I would not say it's entirely the developer's, since fortresscraft's makers do not seem very proffessional, it comes down to the language's speed (specifically use of shaders).
apython1992




PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:36 pm   Post subject: RE:Why Java sucks

Java is hardly slower than C#. Sure, before JIT it was a big issue, but now Java isn't remotely something I'd call a "speed hog".
mirhagk




PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:46 pm   Post subject: RE:Why Java sucks

slower in what way? With 3D video game development, XNA lets you use shaders much more intuitively, and even allows you to use your own shader to draw using it's 2D drawing functions. Java can work with openGL that lets you do most of those things sure, but it doesn't work as closely together, and the speed isn't quite as good.

If you really think that fortresscraft was somehow developed better than minecraft (other than the fact that the developers actually were able to do things such as bump mapping and stuff), then I am completely wrong, but I think notch is a decent enough developer, and it's the limitations of his project and language that make it slow.
DemonWasp




PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:16 pm   Post subject: RE:Why Java sucks

Then you're wrong. The reason that Minecraft is slow is because that's how its written. Java is perfectly able, through any one of various libraries (LWJGL, JOGL, ...) of accessing OpenGL features, including everything from shaders and bump mapping to the fun mesh subdivision stuff in OpenGL4 / DirectX 11. Some kinds of calls might be slower, because there's a slight JNI overhead, but you can usually get around that with batched calls (instead of draw-this-triangle, use draw-these-1K-triangles).

For example, Java Monkey Engine (JME) is a shader-based 3D engine written entirely in Java, and it's pretty fast.
Insectoid




PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:17 pm   Post subject: RE:Why Java sucks

http://jmonkeyengine.com/showcase/

jMonkey is pretty sweet. These games, while certainly not the most graphically intense, do look very nice, and all were programmed in Java. I'd bet my ass they run faster than Minecraft's garbage graphics, and jMonkey can certainly be optimized further. I am 100% sure that most of the slow-down in Minecraft is due to bad code.

XNA is a toolkit, not a language. All it does is abstract game creation away from low-level code and lets you build games for multiple (microsoft) platforms easily. I don't see how it speeds up the actual execution except perhaps because XNA code is faster than anything the game developer could (or has the time to) write.

I haven't bothered to look for any, but I'm sure there are tools available to streamline OpenGL/whatever development to match XNA's functionality.

EDIT: Mythruna looks like a minecraft clone (according to the description, and them blocky trees) but you can't deny how nice the other games look.
mirhagk




PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:20 pm   Post subject: RE:Why Java sucks

the reason why XNA runs faster is because it takes away the low level work (while keeping most of the needed control), and those low level functions are done by the library, This makes it faster for 2 reasons. 1 because the programmer themselves don't have to worry about sub-optimal code, and 2 because the actual operations aren't running as C# code, but rather as assembly operations.

This is actually where much of C#'s speed comes into play, not in the fact that the operations themselves are fast, but because the common libraries are all implemented as assembly libraries, instead of C# code.

jMonkey does actually look decent, but compare that to XNA games, like these
http://www.riemers.net/eng/Tutorials/XNA/Csharp/Series4/Gradient_skybox.php
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAcMWJvibjo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LBz31EpBNA&feature=related
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