Programming C, C++, Java, PHP, Ruby, Turing, VB
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Cervantes




PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:41 pm   Post subject: (No subject)

wtd wrote:

Experiment!


We've heard lots of suggestions and arguments for which programming language to learn after Turing. But there are other ways to approach this question.

Rather than carefully choosing a language and rushing headlong into it, take a month to experiment. Pick a few languages that are possible candidates. Chose your candidates how you will, but consider chosing at least one from either side in this discussion. Nominate both Java and Ruby into your list or both C++ and O'Caml. Learn the fundamentals and the basis of the programming paradigms behind them. Wikipedia is a great place to get a glimpse of what a language is like.

While you're experimenting, make notes about each candidate, with the following topics as a guideline.

  • Is it easy to learn?
  • Do you understand what you've learned thus far, or does it seem like there is some "magic" behind the scenes?
  • Are there good resources available?
  • Is the language's community welcoming, helpful, and open-minded, or is it cold and closed?
  • Do you feel comfortable with the language?
  • Is it really something new, or is it similar to what you already know?
  • Is the language alive and growing, or is it dead?
  • Does the relate to things that interest you?


After a month, you'll have much better grounds on which to decide which language you should learn next. You'll be deciding partly on your own experiences, rather than blindly trusting the advice of those around you. "Be an informed consumer"!
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neufelni




PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:17 pm   Post subject: (No subject)

What do you all think of Python. I am learning it right now and I really like it. It is a lot better than Turing. You can make a program in Python with much less code than the same program in Turing. I think that Python is a good choice for a language to learn after Turing.
[Gandalf]




PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:56 pm   Post subject: (No subject)

I would have to agree. Python and Ruby are what I would suggest, though it seems O'Caml would be the best choice for a mind stretching. Smile

Also, if you're looking for Python Turing-like graphics abilities and more, make sure to try PyGame.
Chinchilla




PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 5:25 pm   Post subject: (No subject)

If you go as far as to say java is compiled than you might as well say python is too. Java uses a virtual machine to run the code, as do most other "interpreted" languages I've looked at. Even PHP scripts that aren't compiled get compiled before being thrown through the Zend VM (hence if you want your site to run faster, precompile the code), and I just downloaded the Python source to confirm that it gets compiled, the 'ceval.c' is where the virtual machine is. I don't wanna get the engine's for other languages you say are interpreted, it would be easier to omit whether it's interpreted or compiled, because it doesn't have much bearing on the qualities of the language itself, and people have different views of what a compiled or an interpreted language is.

I.E.
Some people would assume that compiled can mean that the code is converted to the bytecode that the processor can run.

Another group of people would assume that compiled means that it's converted to bytecode that can be run by a VM.

Likewise for the word 'interpreted'

Some people would assume that interpreted is any bytecode that isn't executed by the processor, rather a VM.

Another person would assume that interpreted implies that the code is executed directly by reading the text without turning it into VM readable bytecode.


Just a suggestion o.O
tez_h




PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:20 am   Post subject: Compiled, interpreted

Chinchilla wrote:
<snip>

I.E.
Some people would assume that compiled can mean that the code is converted to the bytecode that the processor can run.

Another group of people would assume that compiled means that it's converted to bytecode that can be run by a VM.

Likewise for the word 'interpreted'

Some people would assume that interpreted is any bytecode that isn't executed by the processor, rather a VM.

Another person would assume that interpreted implies that the code is executed directly by reading the text without turning it into VM readable bytecode.


As far as I understand, compilation is strictly the transformation of a program from one representation or language into another. Interpretation is the execution of a program in some language or representation. Languages are, strictly, agnostic of compilers and interpreters, as their semantics can be expressed in many ways (denotational, abstract machine, etc).

So, for example, gcc is a compiler from C to machine code (well, actually, it compiles into an intermediate representation first, so that the back-end is in fact modular). Java, using the usualy toolchain, is compiled into bytecode. A JVM is a java-bytecode interpreter. A computer is a machine code interpreter implemented in hardware. Note, also, that compilation isn't always from very-high-level to very-low-level (but of course it's much easier that way round). GHC compiles (at least it once did) Haskell into C. Well, C isn't particularly high-level, but it ain't machine code or bytecode.

This is somewhat orthogonal to any point about languages suitable for learning/teaching. I thought I'd just point out that the terms "compile" and "interpret" have strict meaning, even though they are loosely used and abused, and that in fact compilation and interpretation is independent of most language definitions, syntaxes, and semantics (eg. there exists a C interpreter, even though it might commonly be thought of as a "compiled language", whatever that's supposed to mean).

-Tez
Guest




PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2006 8:47 pm   Post subject: (No subject)

I've only programmed in Turing mainly, and a tiny bit in Java (Holtsoft's Ready to Program), and Python which I downloaded myself, because I heard Nasa used it.

I'd have to say Java is boring, Turing is easy, Python seems like fun.

I have Bloodshed C++ and Ruby, and I don't like those two because they seem like bulky slow programs compared to lightweight Turing, Java, and Python.

VB seems weird because I don't like the dragging of buttons and then double clicking to enter the coding.

Verdict: I like Python, and if the school gets it, I would work on it more.
Cervantes




PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2006 9:54 pm   Post subject: (No subject)

vahnx wrote:

I have Bloodshed C++ and Ruby, and I don't like those two because they seem like bulky slow programs compared to lightweight Turing, Java, and Python.


Are you talking about the programming language themselves, or the IDE's that you used to program in? There is a world of difference.

C++ is one of the fastest languages out there. Ruby is rather slow, though it's on the same level as Turing. Ruby, however, makes up for this in terms of it's sheer power (in regard to the human reading/making the code, not the computer interpreting it).

Java is by no means lightweight. It has a huge library and is also quite slow.

vahnx wrote:
Verdict: I like Python, and if the school gets it, I would work on it more.

That's great, but school will only take you so far. So much learning in compsci is done outside the classroom. Why? Because there's so many resources available online. If you want to learn Python, don't wait for your class (because I can just about guarentee that you'll never learn Python as a class); jump right in from home!
neufelni




PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:04 am   Post subject: (No subject)

If you want to learn Python, a great tutorial to get started with is http://www.byteofpython.info/read/
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DemonZ




PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:31 pm   Post subject: (No subject)

Hey would switching from turing to DarkBasic be a good idea, since that language is purely for games and its simplified to the maximum, meaning u barely have to right any code to get something to work, plus it comes with its own object editor and creator
wtd




PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:03 am   Post subject: (No subject)

DemonZ wrote:
Hey would switching from turing to DarkBasic be a good idea, since that language is purely for games and its simplified to the maximum, meaning u barely have to right any code to get something to work, plus it comes with its own object editor and creator


If you want to write games, yes.

If you want to be a programmer, then it's absolutely the wrong direction to go.
DemonZ




PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:05 am   Post subject: (No subject)

yah then I think im gonna take the writing games dirrection, and maybe Ill think about programming, I cant say being a game maker is better than a programmer, so I might go both ways
ericfourfour




PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:10 pm   Post subject: (No subject)

I think don't think wtd meant you would become a game developer (as a profession) if you used dark basic. Also why not get two birds with one stone and learn game programming. www.gamedev.net
wtd




PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:24 pm   Post subject: (No subject)

Let me offer this reminder:

"Game programming" is a subset of programming. General programming skills will always be beneficial in the creation of games. The reverse cannot be said.
Danjen




PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:07 pm   Post subject: Re: Where to go next?

Can someone give me a link to any of these languages?
rizzix




PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:36 pm   Post subject: (No subject)

Cervantes @ Sun May 28, 2006 9:54 pm wrote:
Java is by no means lightweight. It has a huge library and is also quite slow.


Wow, old post, but fundamentally flawed. If Java is considered quite slow, then Ruby does not even execute! It's relatively dead frozen.
Java's slowness is only visible in it's startup time. It's fast almost everywhere else. And yes, Java is a great platform for games. As a matter of fact, JRuby runs faster than Ruby.

Java's flaw (as rdrake has repeatedly pointed out) is its memory consumption. There's been research going on in developing a micro jvm for limited small devices. Part of this research involves reducing the memory used by Java apps in general. Hopefully in time some of those ideas creep back into the mainstream jvm. Take a look at Squawk VM, which is an outcome of this research.

Here are some benchmarks (thanks to haskell (the compsci member) for bringing up this site):
Java vs GCC's C
Ruby vs. GCC's C

I've compared to GCC's C, because I've found GCC's C to be the most optimal (in terms of speed and memory) of all the languages listed there!

But, here's one comparing Ruby with Java directly:
Ruby vs. Java
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