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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:06 pm   Post subject: (No subject)

it could very well be that a lot of younger people are socialists, but the fact is that not many of them vote, and politicians know this. Therefore, not many politicians will lean towards socialism because young people don't vote as much, and the goal of every politician is to get votes, votes and more votes. With this objective in mind, they will court a larger voting group, such as middle aged middle class people.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:19 pm   Post subject: (No subject)

Many middle aged people are socialist still, they were hippies and though they may have matured and grown up and realized that "free love and drugs" is not the answer, many are still socialist.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:35 pm   Post subject: (No subject)

Let us actually debate something interesting here - forms of Government are becoming dull material. Something suggest a topic, we will all state our view, then we will start "yelling" at eachother.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:51 pm   Post subject: (No subject)

I disagree with you saying that the "Americans" hate communism. There are communists in America, and to say that all of the residents of America hate communists is like saying that all Canadians live in Igloos. It may seem that Americans hate communists because past communist states have threatened American interests and the interests of the Western World but while the government may not give the impression of loving communists, the general American public in entirety, including everybody, does not hate communists.

Jonos...why do you always make such bad analogies? Democracy is a representation of the majority. So basically, saying that not all of a country agree completely with any one issue does not mean that things do not get done that way. All Americans do not have to hate communism for the government to take an anti-communist stance. Hell, not even more Americans had to vote Bush in, just enough to get EC votes.

So yes, saying that all Americans hate communists is like saying all Canadians live in igloos. But does it have anything to do with your argument? No. SuperGenius said that Americans hate communists. Generally speaking, if enough Americans hate communists for their government to act on that fact, then Americans hate communists. Right now, Americans don't hate communists, they just have no interest in pursuing communist ideals. Americans like to have their wealth and dystopic literature like that of George Orwell represent communism in a skewed and hyperbolous fashion. His novels were written in the Cold War era; American culture was stinking with things that bred a fear of communism. I for one think that the government planted the seed of fear, and just like with Iraq everyone followed headlessly.

Saying that something happened a long time ago is not always relevant. Like I said before, Germans killed Jews once. Americans have a pattern of starting wars. The government convinces the public and everyone is happy, for a while. Then the body bags start rolling in because the war is longer than expected and everyone is unhappy.

And anyways, Steven Harper WILL Americanize Canada, and that's the main reason you should not give him your support. Sponsorship scandal be damned; why are we grasping onto a relatively small scale and unrare occurence when we should be looking to what the Liberals can do for us in the future? I always thought it was funny that the Liberals balanced budgets better while the Conservatives are more liberal with their spending....

the last time they did they got their asses kicked

Heheh...A lot has changed since the 1800's.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:40 pm   Post subject: (No subject)

I thought we weren't talking about democracy, but...

I don't know much about 1984, but Animal Farm was a satire on the Russian and Bolshevik Revolutions, not communism. It is dystopic in the sense that it is an imaginary occurance, but to say that it presents communism in a hyperbolic fashion is not correct. It's plot follows that of the Russian Revolution and it's outcome, and while it does present communism, it presents communism as it turned out to be in Russia, and that is not imaginary. In 1984 he presents communism as Russian communism may have seemed from a Western World point of view. The reason that Americans did not like Communism during the Cold War because the only form Communism came in was in the form of Russia and some other small communist countries that didn't make such an impact. Russian communism and what Russia was doing presented a clear threat to American way of life. It's thanks to Russia that communism gets a bad name. But to say that people don't like Communism because it's distorted in literature and the government tells us it is bad is also not entirely correct. Some people may think this, but many people do not like Communism because it is the opposite of Capitalism and free enterprise and private property, which people want. What you have practically said in this and other posts is that people who do not like communism do not like it because they don't know what it really is, just what it was in Russia. That is not true.

And please don't say that everyone followed the government with Iraq because you may lead me to make more idiotic analogies to show that this is also wrong. If you'll remember the protests and demonstrations against the way... maybe Michael Moore's Oscar speech... Even the people who followed did not follow without sense as you said, many people thought Iraq was a threat - as America, Canada, Russia, Germany, France, etc all said that he had the weapons. I'll stop so I don't try making stupid analogies. I'm sorry for the bad ones though. Please accept my heartfelt apology.

And what do you mean by Americanize Canada? If you mean making it wealthier, then what is wrong with that? If you are thinking in terms of healthcare, then you are wrong. He can't do that because he would lose support. Canadians have been fed all this bullshit by the Liberals and the NDP too long to understand that a two tier system is not as bad as it may seem. If you mean Americanize our Healthcare system in terms of increasing the level of health care and decreasing waiting times, then what is wrong with that. Paul Martin is always going on about Harper Americanizing Canada but he won't even say how and concerning what. Americanization in some aspects is not bad... If you are going to say that he is going to pull us into wars with other countries alongside the US you are also wrong. He has already taken back his comments about Canada going into Iraq. Lost my train of thought.

I also find it funny that sometimes the Liberals can balance a budget, while sometimes the Conservatives can't; but I also find it that the Liberals can still balance a budget and waste 150-250 million dollars on the sponsorship and the gun registry!

I also think that we should not forget about the sponsorship scandal because it shows how irresponsible the Liberals were and how invincible they felt. How are the Liberals to govern responsibly when they cannot manage our money responsibly?
I don't have too much of a problem with the Liberals now that Paul Martin is leader. He will probably do the Liberal thing and campaign from the left and rule from the right, but I have a problem with his flippiness. First he said he would go through parliament concerning abortion and same-sex marriage, now he is attacking Harper for wanting to do the same. Paul Marting calls himself a devout Catholic, a follower of Catholic beliefs, but he cannot stick with those beliefs when it comes time to campaign and get votes. Sounds like vote mongering but I'll shut up about that because every politician does it.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:42 pm   Post subject: (No subject)

Animal Farm portrays communists as dishonest and two-faced. I find it strange that there's no dystopic fiction on democracy. I bet communists have their own version of 1984. Yeah...where everyone has sold out their national identity just to be wealthier. Where their sense of nationality comes from how much money their country has.

If you don't believe that people get their definition of communism from Russia, ask people the first country they think when they think communist. And ask them the first thing they think when they think communism.

A vast majority of Americans approved of Bush's decision to invade Iraq in the early months of the war cuz they were scared from 9/11. Michael Moore was not a protester in those times.

MY GOD. Canada did not believe Iraq had WMD. Neither did France. They trusted the UN inspectors and they were right. Russia did not endorse war because it had investments in Iraq; same with China. Even British politicians were caught hyping up the idea that there may be WMD.. Read up on this... Saying that Canada believed there were WMD in the same way the US did is completely wrong.

The Conservatives are the ones who gave us the GST. I guess it isn't so bad, but its pretty high compared to most countries. The Conservatives have never been tested either. Paul Martin was a good finance minister and apparently he knew nothing about the scandal. Chretien went behind his back and was responsible for it. Or at least, it's a possibility that has been thrown around. Its ridiculous for everyone to be hammering at Paul Martin for a mistake the previous PM made. If there's no other reason to vote for Conservatives other than you don't want to vote Liberal or NDP....people shouldn't vote. Liberals are for decreasing waiting times too without privatizing it.

Re: the sponsorship and the gun registry; you learn from your mistakes. Don't you also find it interesting that Canada is progressing and paying off its debt even with big wastes like that? What about the big black hole in the Conservative budget that Steven Harper won't address and changes the subject back to the sponsorship scandal all the time?

A close call for the Liberals will make them realize how little leash they have left... I think with a new driver at the reins, the Liberals can make a difference. If the Conservatives are voted in, I believe they'll slowly take away from our Canadian identity. You can't put a price on our identity; I wouldn't lose it for a 150-250 million dollar anything.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:57 pm   Post subject: (No subject)

Ooops, I hope I didn't give the impression that I think people didn't get their impression of communism from Russia. I was saying that people got their "distorted" concept of communism from Russia.


"Even today, Iraq is not nearly disarmed. Based on highly credible intelligence, UNSCOM [the U.N. weapons inspectors] suspects that Iraq still has biological agents like anthrax, botulinum toxin, and clostridium perfringens in sufficient quantity to fill several dozen bombs and ballistic missile warheads, as well as the means to continue manufacturing these deadly agents. Iraq probably retains several tons of the highly toxic VX substance, as well as sarin nerve gas and mustard gas. This agent is stored in artillery shells, bombs, and ballistic missile warheads. And Iraq retains significant dual-use industrial infrastructure that can be used to rapidly reconstitute large-scale chemical weapons production." -- Ex-Un Weapons Inspector Scott Ritter

That is from a UN guy. I remember reading that France, Russia, Canada, and Germany believed that Iraq had the weapons. Something that Mark Steyn wrote, and I remember this clear as day because I read it only a month ago.

Michael Moore has always been a protestor.

Paul Martin was finance minister. Anything in government that involves needing money has first to go through the finance minister. If Paul Martin was the finance minister, he would have had to know because real money went to these companies. Either he knew, or he took special steps and precautions to not "know" about it. As in not knowing of the details but knowing of it's existence and the bad bits. And concerning the debt, the Liberals may be paying it off but with how much they are paying it off the debt will be gone by the time my great-great-great or something Grandkids exist.

What is Canada's identity? We have so many immigrants coming into our country that our identity is a mixture of many other identities. How can this be taken away? Or maybe you're implying that Canada's identity is liberalism. You still haven't told me what Harper would Americanize and what americanize actually means, becides "Make us more like America".
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