Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...

[randint]

Hmm...I am going to the University of Waterloo, Honours Mathematics, Regular (because I got rejected by Co-op). I have the intention to major in Combinatorics and Optimization, perhaps with one other major within the Faculty of Mathematics. Does anyone think that CO is a good substitute for CS anyhow? I read from UW's site claiming that these 2 things have a lot to do with one another (CO teaches you a lot of theory?) Tony, have you had much experience with CO 4XX Graduate-level courses that involve algorithms? What are these about?

[Tony]

Graduate level courses begin at 6XX; I think Compilers was the only one I took that was cross-listed as both 4th year and Graduate-level course.

My understanding is that the "Optimization" part of "Combinatorics and Optimization" is what's the closest to CS; and it would be more in the realm of theory (and pure math) than regular CS is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combinatorial_optimization

Quote:

Combinatorial optimization is a subset of mathematical optimization that is related to operations research, algorithm theory, and computational complexity theory. It has important applications in several fields, including artificial intelligence, machine learning, mathematics, auction theory, and software engineering.

The cool part is that it will be specialized knowledge for dealing with some hard problems (where "hard" is a technical term -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NP-hard )

The flip side is that this specialized theory is not very applicable outside of directly working with this class of problems.

Though to be fair almost no CS class teaches any programming anyway -- find the right employment (don't let the lack of co-op stop you from trying), and grind out that practical experience.

[Jonab12]

Good news!

Last night I read 50 pages of a textbook on the Computational Theory.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/6620632/Introcuction-to-Theory-of-Computation-by-Micheal-Sipser

I found it actually really interesting and enjoyed reading it. What I found amazing about the book was the fact that they made basic math recaps and then reconnected them to construct a bigger problem(s) which made me understand the math there.

[randint]

By what I mean CO grad school courses, I mean those CO 430, 434, 442, 444, 446, 450, 452, 463, 466, 471 and 485 where the statement "Cumulative overall average of at least 80%; Not open to General Mathematics students" appears.

And no, being rejected from co-op is not something that would stop me from finding a job on my own, either in a startup or a corporation, or even in the Faculty of Mathematics or UW in general, as a TA or RA. I would need a lot of money to pay my $26000-ish tuition (unless UW or the Ontario government is giving away x thousands of money).

[Dan]

randint @ 26th May 2013, 6:57 pm wrote:

or even in the Faculty of Mathematics or UW in general, as a TA or RA.

Most universities will only hire graduate students as TAs or RAs as they normally guarantee funding to them through those positions. Well it's not impossible by any means to get such a position as an undergrad, I would not count on it unless there is a shortage of grad students to fill them or you can convince a professor to spend some of there grant money on hiring you.

Quote:

I would need a lot of money to pay my $26000-ish tuition (unless UW or the Ontario government is giving away x thousands of money).

There is always OSAP.

[randint]

Still, you need to pay that back, Dan.

[Nathan4102]

I'd rather get a 60k/year job and pay 5% of it to OSAP for 5 years than work a 45k/year job and owe nothing. Obviously it's not ideal, but it's not that bad.

[randint]

OK, here is a thing: computer programming is slowly declining because we do not have too many breakthroughs in the last 10 years when compared to say the 1980s and 1990s. If you know that an industry is huge and growing (such as the health industry [doctors, nurses]), then you do not worry about the tuition expense because it is easy to get $1 grand/year. But then, CS is obviously different because (1) I do not want to become a systems analyst, as that would be the business side and I am not good at writing stuff; (2) programming can be learned by you reading books, watching YouTube videos and do some of it on your computer. CS is by no means computer programming, therefore...

If you have not realized, software piracy is obviously preventing (or slowing) this industry to grow. Right now, it is almost impossible to eliminate all forms of software piracy. Now, if you are the CEO of a company, would you want to invest $ x-billions of dollars into making a piece of "good" software that you know lots of people will be pirating anyways?

The only thing I can think of that CS is useful for is research. This is the Math side of CS, this is what gives programmers the power to make better programs. By inventing reliable and efficient algorithms, you are fundamentally improving a piece of software, not just adding new features into it.

[crossley7]

randint, I will share this. Software piracy is primarily games which is not where the money is. There is a large amount of money available in private programming for corporations and the like. The industry IS growing and developing each day. Apps were barely known 5 years ago and now they are a multi billion dollar a year industry.

You should probably not take such a pessimistic outlook or think that everyone looks to piracy as an option. Piracy is an issue in the personal sales which hits music and movies the hardest. Corporations are the ones purchasing much of the software these days.

Just thought I would clarify that for you. I am now on my third summer developing applications and not once have I dealt with products that might be pirated.

[DemonWasp]

Actually, as industries go, software development and IT is growing really quickly right now, and have been doing so for years. Employers frequently report having trouble finding software developers with the skills they want (though maybe that's their fault, for not offering enough incentives to entice the skilled developers).

Software piracy is, believe it or not, not a huge concern. Games built without DRM, even AAA-quality games, can and do make lots of money. Even Microsoft Windows, one of the most heavily-pirated pieces of software ever, somehow manages to run a profit. Adobe Photoshop, which is probably paid for by about 10% of the people using it, runs a profit.

It will always be impossible to eliminate all forms of piracy; it's just a question of how much money and effort you want to invest in chasing lost sales that probably never existed in the first place. Most pirates, if they cannot pirate, won't start buying software, they'll just do without. A few very skilled people might well make their own versions (GNU/Linux vs Windows, GIMP vs Photoshop, Blender vs (many programs), etc).

[randint]

Microsoft makes a lot o f money because it has contracts with all mainstream Original Equipment Manufactureres such as HP, Dell, Toshiba, Acer, Asus and others. Now, keep in mind that Microsoft is able to do this because it has already made a lot of money, and the OEMs believe that by bundling Microsoft Windows on their computers, they would make a larger profit than if the computers are without operating systems or have Linux installed. This may have eliminated the need for most computer users to pirate, and therefore, Microsoft won, at least for now.

Actually, Windows 8 apps are not particularly useful on a desktop or standard laptop (why the **** am I going to buy an app that only runs on full-screen if I can easily download a standard application for free and run as "windows" [classic desktop])? I agree that tablets can be a large market for these apps, but I do not know the details. As for corporations to buy software...maybe? Yeah, I thought it was strange, Adobe Creative Suite costs $2500/license, who can afford that? Unless you are making $ x-grands every month, I do not think that such a huge investment would be worth the price (seriously, $2500 is enough to buy a top-of-the-line computer with 256GB SSD).

P.S. maybe this is a stupid question, but why are people not using free stuff (GPL-software) and are willing to pirate or even buy stuff? Is Linux really that difficult to use? (Oh, my stupid laptop does not even let me to install Linux, or even Windows, I am stuck and if I need to reformat, I have to hack something in the BIOS).

[Tony]

For Microsoft, the largest source of revenue is their Business Devision - http://www.microsoft.com/investor/EarningsAndFinancials/Earnings/PressReleaseAndWebcast/FY13/Q3/default.aspx

That is, more money is spend on MS Office products, than on the OS. Students might pirate... it doesn't matter, they wouldn't spend money on a word editor anyway. Small businesses, academia, government offices, and corporations will write large cheques for site licenses, instead of GPL software, because

1) historic lockin (staff is used to the tools)
2) arguably better (most FOSS will get you just 80% there)
3) business-tier support. Who are you going to call when Open Office fails to load the company's report spreadsheet?

Edit: I did say "most" (as in not all), but if anyone wants to yell "but Linux", consider http://www.redhat.com/ that will sell you an enterprise Linux server at up to $8600 / year subscription.

[randint]

Tony, are you saying that the only way that Microsoft products can die is if there is something that makes them go bankrupt?

[Tony]

Are you talking about some product in specific?

[randint]

No. Just Microsoft products in general.