DAAAH JAVA I HATE you

[QuantumPhysics]

Well first day of grade 12 has come I wanted to do C/C++ well guess what ... my teacher was indian and you know the thing about indians and programming is that most stick to high level programming in Java.... If we didn't have the new teacher then we would have still been doing C++ but unfortunately because we have a new teacher I will have to suffer through this goddamn JAVA class, let alone we are not even using eclipse... DAH i hate my life. So now I will go back to the stage of being a newbe on this forums and asking "How do i do this" questions in the sub forums FUCK MY LIFE!! WHY JAVA???? WHY??? The course description said C++.

[md]

Stop complaining and learn Java. Use eclipse at home, choose an interesting project for the semester and go nuts. Or, learn C++ on your own at home using the same method. There is no reason to let a bad teacher (or just one who doesn't teach what you want to be taught) stop you from learning.

[Zren]

Quote:

let alone we are not even using eclipse...

If you're learning how to compile using javac + command line, then that's good. If you keep it up for the whole course though... If that's the case, find a portable version of eclipse.

[Insectoid]

Java does indeed suck, but it's good to have a grasp of 2-3 languages. Java plays nicely in some respects (class declarations, file inclusions, etc) compared to C++, but C++ is nicer in other ways.

I hate Java. I really do. But Java will offer learning opportunities that C++ won't. Unfortunately your teacher is going to expect GUIs, just because Java can do it. And you're going to write GUIs even though you hate it, because console I/O takes just as much work as a button (seriously, console input takes like 5 lines of code just to set it up- wtf?).

Quote:

So now I will go back to the stage of being a newbe on this forums and asking "How do i do this" questions in the sub forums

No you won't. Yeah, you'll ask questions, but you won't ask stupid ones. If you know C++, you'll need no help on the logic since lots of it is the same. You'll run into syntax problems, but then you can google "How do I do X in Java" and most times the first result is your answer. Just because you're doing Java doesn't mean you're back at square 1.

[Tony]

Just a reminder -- Computer Science as Science is language independent. The algorithms are all math; C++ or Java are just implementations to see those algorithms run.

[QuantumPhysics]

md @ Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:27 pm wrote:

Stop complaining and learn Java. Use eclipse at home, choose an interesting project for the semester and go nuts. Or, learn C++ on your own at home using the same method. There is no reason to let a bad teacher (or just one who doesn't teach what you want to be taught) stop you from learning.

Please regard that - I know C/C++ to their full potential. I know java aswell. I just hate it.

[QuantumPhysics]

md @ Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:27 pm wrote:

Stop complaining and learn Java. Use eclipse at home, choose an interesting project for the semester and go nuts. Or, learn C++ on your own at home using the same method. There is no reason to let a bad teacher (or just one who doesn't teach what you want to be taught) stop you from learning.

Please regard that - I know C/C++ to their full potential. I know java as well. I just hate it. All i'm complaining about is the fact that the course description (once i chose selected it on course selection) said that we will be learning C++, I took the course for 2 reasons. Firstly I love Computers and every single bit increment and value that they include/possess. secondly it would have been an easy 100% on my finals, but now I'll get a 80 - 90 (because of my hate for java) and i just hate how the course code lied to us and that we are NOT allowed to use eclipse. Is what I'm saying. I use eclipse at home though. But i just dislike java. IMO



EDIT: Okay, there is something wrong here, when i tried to post the post above, the beginning of this the server replied - "You have posted too many posts in a short while", so i kept on typing on this topic and once I submitted it, I looked above and apparently it posted the previous one that gave me this error ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. But strange enough it still made the post.

P.S. I'm still writing the computer contest(s) in my beloved one - C++ I won't let the measly course hang me down to java.

[QuantumPhysics]

Insectoid @ Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:01 pm wrote:

Java does indeed suck, but it's good to have a grasp of 2-3 languages. Java plays nicely in some respects (class declarations, file inclusions, etc) compared to C++, but C++ is nicer in other ways.

I hate Java. I really do. But Java will offer learning opportunities that C++ won't. Unfortunately your teacher is going to expect GUIs, just because Java can do it. And you're going to write GUIs even though you hate it, because console I/O takes just as much work as a button (seriously, console input takes like 5 lines of code just to set it up- wtf?).

Quote:

So now I will go back to the stage of being a newbe on this forums and asking "How do i do this" questions in the sub forums

No you won't. Yeah, you'll ask questions, but you won't ask stupid ones. If you know C++, you'll need no help on the logic since lots of it is the same. You'll run into syntax problems, but then you can google "How do I do X in Java" and most times the first result is your answer. Just because you're doing Java doesn't mean you're back at square 1.

Insectoid wrote:

Java does indeed suck, but it's good to have a grasp of 2-3 languages. Java plays nicely in some respects (class declarations, file inclusions, etc) compared to C++, but C++ is nicer in other ways.

I hate Java. I really do. But Java will offer learning opportunities that C++ won't. Unfortunately your teacher is going to expect GUIs, just because Java can do it. And you're going to write GUIs even though you hate it, because console I/O takes just as much work as a button (seriously, console input takes like 5 lines of code just to set it up- wtf?).

Quote:

So now I will go back to the stage of being a newbe on this forums and asking "How do i do this" questions in the sub forums

No you won't. Yeah, you'll ask questions, but you won't ask stupid ones. If you know C++, you'll need no help on the logic since lots of it is the same. You'll run into syntax problems, but then you can google "How do I do X in Java" and most times the first result is your answer. Just because you're doing Java doesn't mean you're back at square 1.

I LOVE YOU! Firstly, you abide to the fact that java sucks Secondly, I also think that as a programmer you need to have nice handle of 2 or more languages (very nice). Although you mentioned GUI in java. I know GUI in C++, i do Native API using LRESULT CALLBACK... along those lines. I find that GUI/OOP much more easier than the one java offers. Bleh the syntax in java is soo long and stressful. Some of the syntax reads one thing and explains/elaborates into a whole other. Its so confused aaah! I love your thoughts about Java though!

[QuantumPhysics]

Tony @ Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:14 pm wrote:

Just a reminder -- Computer Science as Science is language independent. The algorithms are all math; C++ or Java are just implementations to see those algorithms run.

But you can run those algorithms in any language. Are you saying that Java has algorithms that C++ does not? Can you please elaborate. You may have brought up a brilliant point here I just fail somehow to see what you have said.

[mirhagk]

Tony was saying the language is irrelevant since every language is exactly the same in terms of capability, the only difference is the ease of doing certain things. And I would be very surprised if you knew C/C++ to their full potential, since even people who make compilers for C/C++ still don't know it to the FULL potential, and there are ALWAYS new things to learn.

I also hate Java, because I find it to be a lot of bloat without a lot of use. They have abstract syntax, but force strange low-level concepts on you.

Also if they don't let you use an IDE, then what are they letting you do in terms of debugging? IDE-less debugging would be a HUGE pain, and good luck with that lol.

But have fun, code in C++ (or even a new language) at home, and just breeze through java at school

[QuantumPhysics]

mirhagk @ Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:28 pm wrote:

Tony was saying the language is irrelevant since every language is exactly the same in terms of capability, the only difference is the ease of doing certain things. And I would be very surprised if you knew C/C++ to their full potential, since even people who make compilers for C/C++ still don't know it to the FULL potential, and there are ALWAYS new things to learn.

I also hate Java, because I find it to be a lot of bloat without a lot of use. They have abstract syntax, but force strange low-level concepts on you.

Also if they don't let you use an IDE, then what are they letting you do in terms of debugging? IDE-less debugging would be a HUGE pain, and good luck with that lol.

But have fun, code in C++ (or even a new language) at home, and just breeze through java at school

Yes praise thee. Another java hater Join my army! I would love to have everyone's facts against why Java is bad and use it against my teacher to prove her wrong. In her case she says that Java is the best language out of every other language and computers would be nowhere without it. They are letting us use a IDE, but it is one like a kindergarten IDE, its called Learning to program Java. Its like turing but even worse. I'm going to use eclipse anyways because it has everything that you can use in the one i stated above and more, i don't care what she says. It's still Java and the same syntax. I love C++, but I am really getting into debugging/reverse engineering with the olly debugger, and so far I am pretty good at it. Olly debugger is free by the way, you probably heard of it. I am not saying I know every single 'bit' of C++ but I know enough to allow me to do anything that I am put against, or anything that I do on a daily basis. Though my main interest is algorithms, cryptology, networking and security. Thanks though.

And now I would like to move back to the post I made to tony, I very much agree with the fact that every language is the same, or atleast they have a lot in common. The syntax would be different but yea I see however that the language(s) performs' the same operation. Thanks for that.

[mirhagk]

Your teacher does have a point, Java was a very important part of our history, and only recently are other things taking it's place. Java was unique in that it did Just-In-Time compilation, which meant it could be run on any system in the world that supported Java, and it would be converted to actually machine language as it's run. JIT is pretty amazing stuff, as you get the power of a compiled language with the flexibility of a scripting language.

I would still use Java over many other languages (like the terrible horrendous language apple has chosen for it's mobile platform). It is probably like 4th on my list for programming languages to use (C#, C++, Python, Java if you were wondering).

Don't worry about convincing your teacher Java sucks, convince your teacher that programming doesn't depend on the language, and that by limiting the language she's really only cutting corners for her own sake, she's not helping the students out. My comp sci teacher would let us hand in work in any language we chose, it didn't matter to him. He'd compile and run it, see if it worked, and then perused the code to check for comments and stuff. He didn't even need to learn the language in most scenarios, and even if he did, it's easy to learn. It's better to convince a teacher all languages are equivalent then to complain about the language she choose. Be positive rather than negative.

Learn about the universal turing machine, and how it works, and learn about algorithms and language independence, and fight her with that. If she's being unreasonable see where her limit is. Would you be able to accept command line parameters to control program flow? Dynamic expressions? Interpret another language in Java.

If you absolutely can't do Java, see if you can find a cross-language compiler. and use that. Just make sure to test the final result, and add comments/clean it up.

[DemonWasp]

Insectoid wrote:

console input takes like 5 lines of code just to set it up- wtf?

Java:

Scanner in = new Scanner ( System.in );

mirhagk @ Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:18 pm wrote:

Java was unique in that it did Just-In-Time compilation,

False, many other languages had JIT first. LISP, in particular, had JIT 30 years before Java was even invented ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_compilation#History ).

mirhagk @ Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:18 pm wrote:

which meant it could be run on any system in the world that supported Java.

That has nothing to do with JIT, that has to do with the JVM. The JVM implementation may (or may not) use JIT to handle code execution. The standard JVMs didn't have JIT until Java 1.4; prior to that, Java was incredibly slow, because it was always interpreted.

I would also love to have some examples of both "bloat" and "strange low-level concepts".

[mirhagk]

Hmm didn't know LISP did it. I knew java didn't invent it, but it certainly popularized it. I am actually amazed that Java didn't have JIT originally, and more amazed at how anyone could use it if it was interpreted (especially since it is not very abstract for an interpreted language)

And the low level concepts that carry over are things such as the difference between an int and an Integer, and how .equals sometimes needs to be used instead of just ==
see here for more info:
http://compsci.ca/v3/viewtopic.php?t=9877 For a interpreted language it has some terrible compiled languages bloat.

Bloat is less obvious, but I just find Java to be not much more expressive than C++ with a lot more overhead in terms of code that must be written. The bloat part is really just a personal opinion, others may find it more useful.

[QuantumPhysics]

Well, thank you guys for all your great advice, and thank you mirhagk for the great points of defense against my rebellion. Thanks.