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 Windows 8
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mirhagk




PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 8:51 am   Post subject: RE:Windows 8

As always, you must wait until they release the 2nd way. Vista was crappy, but made a LOT of changes that pushed the OS forward, and allowed 7 to kick butt. In the same way, microsoft is really taking a risk with windows 8, many people don't like it, but it definitely kicks butt for any touch screen device. They are gathering useful input from many people, and the general consensus seems to be that they need to make the desktop part default for non-touch screens, and bring back the start menu (both of which you can go with 3rd party stuff currently).

Whether or not you like windows 8, you gotta admit that windows is pretty darn innovative, they are the only company that'd take a risk of COMPLETELY reworking the UI in their OS. Most software just goes through simple tweaks, but they made HUGE changes, then tweak it. The amount of stuff they changed in windows 8 is absolutely mindblowing, and it'll pay off once they get to the tweaking version (windows 9).
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wtd




PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 9:58 am   Post subject: RE:Windows 8

Honestly, I've used both Windows 7 and Windows 8 for quite some time now (and Windows 2000 and XP for longer before that)...

... and I've experienced zero pain from the new Start screen compared to the Start menu.

The only people I see experiencing problems with the changes are those fighting it. Microsoft's going to do whatever the heck they want, and unless you're going to use a Mac or Linux full-time, then sit back and enjoy the ride.
DemonWasp




PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 11:46 am   Post subject: Re: RE:Windows 8

mirhagk @ Thu May 02, 2013 8:51 am wrote:
Whether or not you like windows 8, you gotta admit that windows is pretty darn innovative, they are the only company that'd take a risk of COMPLETELY reworking the UI in their OS.


So I guess Canonical's complete replacement of Gnome2 with Unity doesn't count?

Or the complete change of design philosophy between Gnome2 and Gnome3?

Or the truly massive changes between Mac OS 9 and OSX (a complete rewrite of pretty well the entire operating system, not just the UI)?
wtd




PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 2:16 pm   Post subject: Re: RE:Windows 8

DemonWasp @ Fri May 03, 2013 12:46 am wrote:
mirhagk @ Thu May 02, 2013 8:51 am wrote:
Whether or not you like windows 8, you gotta admit that windows is pretty darn innovative, they are the only company that'd take a risk of COMPLETELY reworking the UI in their OS.


So I guess Canonical's complete replacement of Gnome2 with Unity doesn't count?

Or the complete change of design philosophy between Gnome2 and Gnome3?

Or the truly massive changes between Mac OS 9 and OSX (a complete rewrite of pretty well the entire operating system, not just the UI)?


I get your point, but...

None of those were huge changes to overwhelmingly commercially successful systems. Microsoft gets less credit for innovation than for the guts to mess with what has for quite some time been a winning formula. Of course, they're doing that because the PC industry is in decline, and being king of a shrinking mountain isn't what they want.
mirhagk




PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 5:06 pm   Post subject: RE:Windows 8

Also those changes were huge code changes, back to the end user it was really a minor change. Windows 8 ditched the standard model that every OS has used for the past 20 years in favour of a non-desktop UI.

I'm not as well versed into what is available in terms of UI for linux, since I've only used a few UIs in linux at all, but I've tried Unity and Gnome (and a few others) on Ubuntu, and other than style and some minor changes, they are essentially the same UI that's been used since Xerox invented it.

Look at this article's pictures:
http://appleinsider.com/articles/09/01/20/windows_7_vs_mac_os_x_snow_leopard_competitive_origins

Fundamentally we've had the some UI from every OS since the days of no-UI.

Yes there have been more major changes in terms of codebase, and UI styles, but completely changing the UI is something every end user will notice immediately, and actually know about (a lot of people won't even notice when you switch systems).

Windows 8 completely removed the concept of a window (which is ironic), and ditched the concept of a menu, and a file bar.

Most people that have been complaining about windows 8 complain about it because they are used to a completely different system, and they're not used to this completely new UI.
wtd




PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 7:06 pm   Post subject: RE:Windows 8

The biggest problem for Microsoft is that it is a very radical rethinking of how applications are built. But also that by preserving the legacy desktop UI, there's very little incentive to explore that new UI. It's a lot of work to reach a smaller audience.
Nathan4102




PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 7:57 pm   Post subject: RE:Windows 8

I once tried Windows 8 on a relatives laptop, screwed with it for 10 minutes, never used it again. I might like it if I got used to it, but I absolutely hated the handheld-like startscreen.
andrew.




PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 9:50 pm   Post subject: RE:Windows 8

I recently got a new laptop for work that has Windows 8 on it. And I realized that as soon as I stopped fighting the change, things went a lot smoother. I do a lot of development and I haven't really had many problems with it. Yeah, the start screen is different, but it still serves the same basic function as the start menu. Plus, some of the new Metro changes are useful.
mirhagk




PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 2:26 pm   Post subject: RE:Windows 8

Yeah WTD, I agree that having the desktop also there makes a lot of people avoid the new UI altogether, but they'd break every existing app otherwise, so they kinda have to offer it. Plus I like multiple window, because I'm a content creator, not a consumer.

PS I realized recently how little any one else actually uses windows. With the way the "maximize" works on mac, I actually see at least 50% of people with half their desktop still visible, and safari open on only half the machine. I want to cry every time I see it....
wtd




PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 2:48 pm   Post subject: RE:Windows 8

Well, the Apple solution to this problem would have been to say: "We have this neat new platform called 'Metro' (or whatever). We think it's really neat and want you to try it."

With this approach, you keep Windows as it is and keep refining it, but you also add the other platform, and make the Modern UI the only way to develop apps for that. By doing so, you force devs to build apps optimized for your new UI... or not at all.

If you do this, you have to be willing to let your new platform overshadow the old, as Apple has done with iOS and OS X. Microsoft has a fanatical attachment to Windows, though, so this approach is culturally untenable for them.
wtd




PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 2:50 pm   Post subject: Re: RE:Windows 8

mirhagk @ Sat May 04, 2013 3:26 am wrote:
PS I realized recently how little any one else actually uses windows. With the way the "maximize" works on mac, I actually see at least 50% of people with half their desktop still visible, and safari open on only half the machine. I want to cry every time I see it....


That's because the "+" button has never meant "maximize." It more or less intelligently fits the window to the contents. Of course, now there is a fullscreen button.
randint




PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 2:06 pm   Post subject: Windows 8 Cloning

This is a more technical question about Windows 8/Windows Server 2012 setup. Suppose that we want to "clone" Windows into multiple computers, meaning I create a Windows Installation Disc with all my programs and updates, by means of using a virtual machine (VirtualBox in this case), I am not sure what to do. But I have done the following:
1. Installed Windows Server 2012 Datacenter in VirtualBox, as well as the programs I need (updates are something that I am having trouble installing)
2. The host machine I have is running Windows 7, and I have downloaded the Windows ADK from Microsoft.

So, I know I should install Windows ADK on the host, but should I
1. Go into Audit Mode on my VirtualBox'd Windows Server 2012 and Generalize, shut down and then
2. Create a copy of Windows PE
3. Capture the image using DISM and then apply the image wherever I want? Even on an SSD?

Thank you in advance.
btiffin




PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 2:14 am   Post subject: Re: Windows 8

Old guy rant, feel free to ignore

I still have no clue why a developer would want to use Windows.

It's like a race car driver entering a race with a Ford Focus, "because that's what we use at home, you know, the consumer model. Good enough for grandma, and I'm gonna win!". Or a contractor getting to a site with a consumer grade electric drill and then being surprised when it burns out after the first 8 hour shift of actually working the drill.

Oh well, to each their own. But, I'll forewarn, if you spend your working career programming in Windows, don't expect to win. Expect to keep up with a pack at best. It's the design intent of the OS. Mass consumption. A better starting point may be an operating environment built for development.

And you don't have to listen to me if this advice goes against your inner belief system and reading this makes you uncomfortable, listen to a marketing rep instead. They are probably smarter than both of us. And to be honest, how many people that read this are going to win anyway? May be safer to plan to stay with the pack through life; risk is scary and you could actually lose if you separate. Plus you get the bonus of being of the same belief of all the people that don't care to know anything about computers, which is still the majority. Let alone the even smaller minority of people that may actually want to write software.

Why am I risking making some readers uncomfortable? Because I want you to win. I want to read about a compsci.ca member that is famous for the next big thing. That is the main reason I visit here and it would give me a warm fuzzy inside. Maybe just maybe, I'll read about a Canadian that wrote a Windows program and is now famous, in which case I'll stand corrected with my socks knocked off.

One last dig. How many programming languages do you know of, that run only on Windows, and were not written by Microsoft? I wonder why that is like it is? Oh, yeah, the pack people don't win; they survive, but they rarely win.

P.S. I'm a GNU/Linux guy, and I've been setting up another Windows 8 machine this weekend. I don't want to know how this UI works, because I want a command line, a compiler and an editor, thank you very much. So I setup Cygwin, pin the icon to the taskbar and forget about Metro, except for boot up, and those times that I happen to move the mouse to a corner and weird sidebar things popup, distract, and disrupt thinking. That's an awesome feature, especially for programmers.

Now excuse me, a buddy has a real chance at getting an invite to the Masters, so we're going down to Walmart to pick up a new bag of professional golf clubs.
[Gandalf]




PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 3:58 am   Post subject: Re: Windows 8

I don't see how spending your time developing for Windows excludes you from the possibility of 'winning'. As I understand it, 'winning' means being one of those responsible for some next 'big idea'. Yet one of the basic tidbits of knowledge you learn as a developer is that implementation is very separate from the high level idea. To a large extent, it doesn't matter how something is implemented. In certain industries, (take health care) your users/clients (hospitals) are set upon using Windows only, but that doesn't stop you from doing breakthrough work (that helps save lives) that I would easily qualify as 'winning'.

Sorry btiffin, but your argument seems like unjustified propaganda to me. Wink Or, at best, is only applicable to a small subset of computing where the idea is tightly coupled with the operating system.

P.S. I do believe Linux is far superior to Windows as a development environment.
mirhagk




PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 11:37 am   Post subject: Re: Windows 8

btiffin @ Mon May 06, 2013 2:14 am wrote:
One last dig. How many programming languages do you know of, that run only on Windows, and were not written by Microsoft?
How many programming languages do you know of that only run on windows? Discounting esoteric or tiny languages with literally no community, I don't think there are very many languages that run on windows only, I certainly can't think of any.

In fact the languages they've designed recently are all designed for a virtual machine (ie NOT windows), and the virtual machine is well documented, and standardized, and several open source implementations have opened up for nearly every platform.

The platform you use to develop on really doesn't restrict you that much, except through your own incompetence with it. If you can't pump out award-winning programs in record time on a windows computer, that's because you suck, not windows. I can't work nearly as fast on linux, but I count that towards my own lack of major experience with linux and the toolset available.

As for winning, I can show you my ECOO 3rd place medal, my IEEE McMaster 1st place award, and my Startup Weekend Hamilton award, 2nd place overal, 1st place for execution to contradict that. What platform do I use? Windows.

In fact during the IEEE McMaster competition I faced against about 15 other teams, a couple of which were made of grad students. I am a first year student, and I beat the entire problem set in half the time allotted, no other teams finished within the time allotted. I was done the entire thing before most others were finished handling the 1st problem's input.

TL;DR; If you think your platform sucks, it's because you suck at it.

EDIT: Just for clarification, I am not claiming that windows is a better platform for developing, just that you can win on anything. For certain languages/problems I agree linux is probably the better choice, but claiming it's always better, and it's the difference between a race car and a ford focus is just silly.
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