Waterloo Mathematics vs. Toronto Engineering Science

[zero-impact]

This may not be the best place to ask this question, but, I'm running out of time for deciding where to go next year.
So it all started a few months ago when I still had no idea what I wanted to do so I applied to 5 different programs:

UW - Software Engineering
UW - Mathematics
UW - Physics
UofT - Engineering Science
McMaster - Engineering

At this point I have narrowed it down to just Math and EngSci.
The thing is, my interests basically include Math, Physics and Computer Science. I feel as though Mathematics at Waterloo will give me exactly what I want, where as UofT EngSci gives me a lot of other stuff that doesn't really interest me.
My dilemma is that I feel like I'm passing up a great opportunity or something like that if I choose Mathematics over EngSci. At this point in time I see myself wanting to continue my studies in Grad School, however a person can change a lot in 4-5 years and I may not want to do that anymore. If I choose Math will I be stuck with some mediocre job as a codemonkey or something like that? From what I've heard it seems like I have a lot more opportunities if I go with an engineering degree. I don't really know what I'm trying to say here, but if anybody else was/is in a similar situation or could help me out in any way I would really appreciate it.
Thanks

[Prabhakar Ragde]

zero-impact @ Fri May 21, 2010 10:08 pm wrote:

The thing is, my interests basically include Math, Physics and Computer Science. I feel as though Mathematics at Waterloo will give me exactly what I want, where as UofT EngSci gives me a lot of other stuff that doesn't really interest me.

That is the problem with engineering programs -- they are highly constrained and lack flexibility, by design.

Quote:

If I choose Math will I be stuck with some mediocre job as a codemonkey or something like that?

Your chances of that are highest if you major in CS alone and just barely make the average needed to graduate. If you work hard and go beyond the minimum required, there will be a lot more opportunities open to you. An engineering degree is no guarantee, either. Look up the statistics on the number of people still working as engineers five or ten years out.

You are more likely to put in the effort if you're doing things you like. Waterloo Math offers the flexibility for you to maximize your exposure to material you'll enjoy, and to arrange your schedule so that you can make the most of it. EngSci is an interesting program, and were it around when I was choosing schools, I might have been tempted. But knowing what I know now, I believe that you should take the path that offers the largest range of high-quality options.

[zero-impact]

Thank you for your response Prabhakar. I have a few other questions if you don't mind me asking? If you do mind, is there a better place or person I should talk to?

I have heard about the advanced math courses at Waterloo and that it is required to have a score of 80 or higher on the euclid to take these classes. Is there any way around that? What are the pros/cons of taking the advanced courses?

Also, I have received the presidents distinction scholarship with the $1500 towards research. I was wondering how exactly that works?

Finally, I would consider myself a fairly strong student in Math, Physics and computer science, but I am worried about getting lost in the crowd with hundreds of people far superior to me. I don't think at this point I could possibly compete with people scoring 80-90+ on the euclid.

Thanks again

[jcollins1991]

http://www.findoutmore.uwaterloo.ca/financing/president.php

There's info on the scholarships... Entrance scholarships are taken off your first terms fees, the research one would probably be any time after first year... **to take advantage of scholarships you have to fill out a promissory note (look on the UW finance site) and then you only have to pay your fees - $2000 and they'll adjust the final $2000 a month or two into the term...

About the advanced math I'm not completely sure how about getting in without over 80 on Euclid, but that's probably just a general guideline and if you really wanted to get in there's probably someone you could talk to about it (maybe PR could tell you or you could try calling a math advisor...?)... AFAIK there aren't any specific benefits of taking the courses, it's not like a 2 in 1 type of thing like CS145 is for CS135 and CS136, you still have to take 2 levels of calc and 2 levels of algebra... I think the main difference is that the courses are more based on theory and proofs, and for people who really like math you might want to do that instead..?

btw, in uni there's no one who's going to be better than you at everything... Someone might be a calc genius but have no clue how to do algebra or cs...

[Prabhakar Ragde]

zero-impact @ Sun May 23, 2010 11:32 am wrote:

Thank you for your response Prabhakar. I have a few other questions if you don't mind me asking? If you do mind, is there a better place or person I should talk to?

I don't mind, but make sure to get other opinions.

Quote:

I have heard about the advanced math courses at Waterloo and that it is required to have a score of 80 or higher on the euclid to take these classes. Is there any way around that? What are the pros/cons of taking the advanced courses?

Having 80 on Euclid just lets one select the advanced math (and advanced CS) courses on a website in June, instead of convincing an advisor to let you in come September. The Math courses will eventually let anyone try who is persistent enough. (Not true for the CS course -- we are a little more careful because too many students have no clue about their true abilities in CS.)

These courses are for the top 5-10% of incoming students. That said, Euclid score is not everything, and I have seen people with Euclid scores in the 90s wash out, while some in the 60s held on and even did well. It really depends on your work and study habits. Some pretty smart people don't know how to proceed if they can't see the answer to a problem within a few minutes.

The reason to take an advanced course is if it provides you with a suitable level of challenge. If a regular course goes too slow, you will skip class, leave assignments for the last minute, and maybe end up doing worse than you would have with some more challenges. But too many people take the advanced courses because they feel entitled, or stick with them past when they should because they are the "most prestigious courses" or because it would be admitting failure to leave. This is dumb. (There is one other reason to take advanced Math, and that is if you plan on doing a Pure Math major. It is possible to get into that major without advanced Math, but it takes one more course and you will be less prepared.)

Quote:

Also, I have received the presidents distinction scholarship with the $1500 towards research. I was wondering how exactly that works?

If you get someone to supervise you in a URA -- I believe this is either during a school term or full-time during a work term -- you can use that (so that your supervisor doesn't have to scrape up as much money). You'll have to beat the bushes a little to get a URA, though some departments are pretty organized about it (CO, for example).

Quote:

Finally, I would consider myself a fairly strong student in Math, Physics and computer science, but I am worried about getting lost in the crowd with hundreds of people far superior to me. I don't think at this point I could possibly compete with people scoring 80-90+ on the euclid.

You are not competing with other people, unless you want to participate in contests at the university level. You are competing with yourself -- your tendency to slack off, to procrastinate, to be tempted by new freedoms, to view school as something imposed on you instead of something you're doing for yourself. There is a lot of posturing among incoming students, most of whom are used to being the resident "genius" at their high schools, and the more insecure they feel, the more they puff themselves up. Ignore them. Do your work, learn what interests you, and use your leisure time sensibly. University is a series of opportunities. It is up to you to take advantage of them.

I suppose you are competing with other people for co-op jobs. But there marks are not everything. The abilities to express yourself coherently to an interviewer and to contribute useful work to an employer are important. I have been involved in co-op interviews for tutoring positions, and there have been times when I have ranked students with mediocre averages above those with very good averages.

[Prabhakar Ragde]

jcollins1991 @ Sun May 23, 2010 12:17 pm wrote:

AFAIK there aren't any specific benefits of taking the courses, it's not like a 2 in 1 type of thing like CS145 is for CS135 and CS136

This is the last year CS 145 will be "2 in 1". We should never have set it up that way. Starting fall 2011, there will be CS 145/146 parallelling CS 135/136 and CS 115/116. --PR

[zero-impact]

Quote:

If you get someone to supervise you in a URA -- I believe this is either during a school term or full-time during a work term -- you can use that (so that your supervisor doesn't have to scrape up as much money). You'll have to beat the bushes a little to get a URA, though some departments are pretty organized about it (CO, for example).

Sorry but I am unfamiliar with those acronyms, but from a quick google search I get Undergrad Research Assistantship? I'm not sure about CO though, sorry :S
What exactly do you mean by "beat the bushes"?
If I am interested in research, is it reasonably accessible to get involved in it early on in my undergrad career, assuming I maintain decent marks?
If after my first year in Mathematics I decide that I would rather be doing Engineering is it possible to switch programs?
Sorry to bother you with so many questions, it's just I thought for so long that I was just going into Engineering Science, and now that it is coming down to the wire I am second guessing myself.

[Prabhakar Ragde]

zero-impact @ Sun May 23, 2010 4:57 pm wrote:

Sorry but I am unfamiliar with those acronyms, but from a quick google search I get Undergrad Research Assistantship? I'm not sure about CO though, sorry :S

CO = Combinatorics and Optimization, one of the five departments in the Math Faculty. Good stuff.

Quote:

What exactly do you mean by "beat the bushes"?

I mean that you need to knock on the doors of professors and ask them if they would be willing to supervise a URA. And it would help if they knew you a bit first, so that means being "visible" in courses by asking questions, going to office hours, etc.

Quote:

If I am interested in research, is it reasonably accessible to get involved in it early on in my undergrad career, assuming I maintain decent marks?

Yes, if you do the footwork and don't just sit and wait for opportunities to fall into your lap.

Quote:

If after my first year in Mathematics I decide that I would rather be doing Engineering is it possible to switch programs?

It is possible to switch but most Engineering programs are highly structured and you may have to start again from first year. Some switches are easier than others (e.g. first-year Math to Software Engineering is easier than first-year Math to Chemical Engineering). It is generally easier to switch out of Engineering than into it. That said, if research is really what you're aimed at, Engineering is not the best place to be. --PR

[zero-impact]

Thank you very much for your insight. This will definitely help me make my decision, but as of now I am still unsure.
Best Regards

[Prabhakar Ragde]

Let's face it, a lot of people would kill to have the choices you have. I think, among the two you are considering, either would be a fine choice. Good choices may be just as agonizing as bad ones, but they do have the advantage of no real downside.

[zero-impact]

You make a very good point. If I did choose to go into EngSci, but decided that it wasn't for me, would it be practical to switch schools entirely and go to Waterloo? Would I be able to transfer any credits I may have received?

It seems like it really just comes down to more applied vs more theoretical.

[Tony]

zero-impact @ Mon May 24, 2010 9:36 pm wrote:

would it be practical to switch schools entirely and go to Waterloo? Would I be able to transfer any credits I may have received?

Possible? Depends on the circumstances. Practical? Depends on the circumstances.... Keep in mind that transfers work best when you are in a good academic standing (but if you are in a good standing, then you might not be thinking about transferring)

Some credits might transfer; I've switched majors from UW Mechatronics Engineering to UW Computer Science. Same University, different faculty. It was a difficult process. Only 70%+ courses were eligible for a transfer, and out of those most ended up going towards my elective requirements. My Calculus 1 and Algebra 2 transferred faculties. I got an overwrite form to skip pre-requisites and avoided taking entry level CS. Otherwise, I was essentially starting from the 1st year, in terms of core courses.

It's still one of my best academic decisions though

[Prabhakar Ragde]

zero-impact @ Mon May 24, 2010 9:36 pm wrote:

If I did choose to go into EngSci, but decided that it wasn't for me, would it be practical to switch schools entirely and go to Waterloo? Would I be able to transfer any credits I may have received?

You'll be able to transfer many of your credits, but you'll have missed the benefit of the first-year Math/CS courses at UW which prepare you for the upper-year courses. As an example, take software engineering at UW. SE students take different CS and Math in first year, but are eligible to take upper-year CS courses (in fact, the SE program is composed mostly of CS courses or equivalents). My colleagues and I have found that the SE students, while enthusiastic, often struggle with the more mathematical upper-year CS courses, because Engineering math is not taught at as deep a level.

[zero-impact]

Well thanks for all the advice guys
I have finally decided on Mathematics at UW. I feel, as Prabhakar said, that it is the "path that offers the largest range of high-quality options".
I really appreciate all your advice. Maybe I will see you next year.
Best Regards
-Lawson / zero-impact

[Annaye96]

Bumping this to the top if anyone has any additional advice! I find myself in the same situation four years later.