which school is the best

[1of42]

cool dude wrote:

i disagree. if your a good student u would get in anyways, and also like Tony said Lakehead has easier CS therefore Dan should get higher marks that a waterloo student and should get into masters over someone with a lower marker from Waterloo. for example, lets say i went to york and have a A average, and then u go to waterloo and have a B+ average. most likely they would accept me over u to do masters.

Worst reasoning ever. Frankly, between an A and a B+, a university with any sense would realize that Waterloo is a far more rigorous university, and that a B+ at Waterloo represents a much higher calibre of student than a A at York. Frankly, they're in different leagues.

Now, to go off on a tangent: All this "reputation doesn't matter" is crap, imo. A university gets a reputation like Waterloo's by being
good at what they do.

As for Dan's reasoning that the difference between schools doesn't matter because research experience doesn't help or effect you as an undergrad, I call bull****. The best universities get that way by promoting research among undergrads.

While experience is certainly a big factor in choosing a university, totally discarding things like the reputation of the school and the program is stupid. Pure stupid.

[Dan]

Here it comes tony ....

Tony wrote:

before Dan claims that you will, I'm going to point out that Waterloo students consistantly demonstrate themselves in international events.

Your education will is effected 100 times more by you your self then what education instution you go to. I have talked to at least one person in each uni in ontario that has a compsci program and from the sounds of it each is almost the same. They have almost the exctat same corses (only diffreing in name and wether they are 2 0.5 credits or 1, 1 credit).

Now why whould waterloo students have more partisatpion in international contests/events then lakehead or other unis?

Well if you look at it logical the quality of education is the last thing effecting this. 1stly the number of peolepo taking computer realted programs in waterloo is equal to the total popuation of lakehead. Our Computer science program is realtively small as is our enetire population. This dose not mean we have a lessend quality of education just that we have fewer students so we partistate in fewer events and have fewer high palcing students becues we simpley have fewer in the events. Also the location of lakehead is closer to manitboa then souther ontario. This means most of our students do not go to big events simpely do to the cost of travial and acomidations this whould entail.

Also partaisaption in events is hardly an acorete indaction of a universitys level of education. We also most rember that lakehead and smaller unis are not the same type of unveristy. Waterloo is a compreshive unversity, meaning they have both undergrads and gradute progams and students, and thous partisapte in more high level events. Well lakehead is an undergratue unviserity meaning that we have almost no gradute sutdents or programs and spend almost 100% or our resorces on our undergradute students witch is aucatly a good thing for us since we can get postions as rearch studntes well still being an undergrad and we also have the unveristy puting all there resorces in to our progames rather then gradtue ones witch give the unverity rep but do not help undergrads.

Tony wrote:

Dan - correct me on this, but doesn't Lakehead U. has redicilously easy CS? On the flip side U of Waterloo's CS drop-out rate is 40%.

Lakehead's CS is just as hard as any other university. They requre an 80% average to get in and for hounrs co-op you most matain at least a 70% witch is the standered for most unis. However our drop out rate is much lower. Why is this? It is not becues we just hand out free marks, in fact almost my hole class failed one math class and the averges in most classes are close to the 50%~60% mark.

How ever lakehead's police on removing students for programs is difrent the most and they work with studentes to enshure they get a quality education and understand the marteals. Also our class size for say computer science is darmticaly lower then waterloos, if 40% droped out we whould be left with like 6 peoleop for my year. As i side before this dose not mean they are geting a free ride however and will not adavced if they do not pass the classes.

Lakehead's progaming classes in first year where easy for me, becues i allready had an extesive knowagle in computer science and choses not to skip the 1st year computer classes (witch is an option if you can prove you have a strong background in it). As with almost all unversitys with CS they will start you off assuming you know nothing so 1st year will be easy every where, witch is why they ushely offer options to skip classes or take more advaced ones.


Now with all this side, this only applyes to undergrad. Once we hit gradute progames it all chages. Simpely becues lakehead is not a gradute school it whould not be good to go to as a gradute. But as an undergrad going to an undergrad uni makes alot of scences since your uni is working almost 100% on there undergrad progames rather then suporting both undergrad and gradtue, witch means dividing resores, profesers, and anything eletes.

As i side in the beging of this rant it is mostly you who effects your leranging. Don't pick a uni based of repuation, pick it based on what fits YOU best and what you whont in a uni.

[cool dude]

As i said before York might not have the recognition or reputation as Waterloo does, but they have a good program (better than a lot other universities). I never said York is better than Waterloo though because i know that Waterloo is a lot better and it would be my first choice, but the expenses are too great and before Tony is going to go say Co-op will cover this there is no guarantees you'll get a job in Co-op and also the average ppl make from Co-op out of all their years of studying at Waterloo is around $50,000 - 60,000. this won't cover all the expenses and u won't have a break at all no summers. Also i know so many people that graduated from york, ryerson, and other places for CS and have good jobs right after graduation. this shows that does it really matter that much, your still going to get a job eventually and the education will soon not matter much.

[Tony]

cool dude wrote:

u won't have a break at all no summers.

I have a difficulty imagining you simply will take 4 months long vacations and sit around playing video games.. especially with statements like

cool dude wrote:

$50,000 - 60,000. this won't cover all the expenses

I don't know about you, but $50 000 is a pretty awesome contribution to my University bills.

[Dan]

cool dude wrote:

i disagree. if your a good student u would get in anyways, and also like Tony said Lakehead has easier CS therefore Dan should get higher marks that a waterloo student and should get into masters over someone with a lower marker from Waterloo. for example, lets say i went to york and have a A average, and then u go to waterloo and have a B+ average. most likely they would accept me over u to do masters.

LAKEHEAD DOSE NOT HAVE AN EASYER CS.

If you guys simpely whont to make crap up, stop bring me and my uni in to it. There is no founding what so ever for this claim and i am starting to be exteramly offended by it. My grades at lakehead are worth just as much as any other uni and if you don't agrea with that you can go screw you self since it's up to my futter employers to put any vlaue in it and not you. In fact from what i have seen in the work evemerment grades and insingfiect in compareson to work expreicne.

Quote:

As for Dan's reasoning that the difference between schools doesn't matter because research experience doesn't help or effect you as an undergrad, I call bull****. The best universities get that way by promoting research among undergrads.

But they do almost no research with undergrads. Almost all research a unveristy dose is done with the graduates and profesers. This is where they get the magority of there rep and irocily this has one of the least effects on undergrads.

Quote:

While experience is certainly a big factor in choosing a university, totally discarding things like the reputation of the school and the program is stupid. Pure stupid.

No going to a university just becues every one says it is good is pure stupidey. It shows that you have no idepented thougth what so ever and probly are going to face alot of stress full and dispointing situations.

As for this resarch talk you where metioning above, at lakehead since we have no graduate students (at least in most cases) undergrads are geting the resrach postions in there place as eraly as 2nd year (some times even in 1st year in some cases).

But of corses turth and facutal infomration has never realy mattered in thess debates and all we seem to care about is the name of the unversity. Witch is what this is realy coming down to, the name. Not aucatal facts about the unversity or the evnerment of it.

I am NOT GOING to replay to any more posts that are going to flame lakehead or me perosnaly (witch is quit offsive and a falicey in debating) unless they whont to use real facts and not just come up with crap like "lakehead has easy CS" or "you are purely stupied".

Hostly i think am starting to think the waterloo peoleop are trying to compsainte for somthing by atacking other unversitys. I rarely see peoleop from the smaller schools going and making random staments about how other unis suck even if they think there uni is the best. I have never side that lakehead is better then waterloo outright but rather that all unis in ontraio are about the same in there quality of education and that the other parts of the everment are what makes the uni best for you.

Are you poeleop realy argugnet enougth to think that the apreant repuation of your university means that no others can have the same quality of education???

I can't take this level of ingorce any more, so i am quiting this topic and you may contion to flame me, my blifes, idedes and school behind my back.

[rizzix]

Yea stop with these personal comments. Sheesh.

[Martin]

Grades are completely unimportant for post university employment. All other things equal however, an employer will probably hire someone from Harvard University over someone from University of Windsor, for example. School name does matter to employers - it's a brand offering. Most people would take a Coca-Cola over a no-name brand cola, simply because of the name.

Work experience is also important, and Waterloo offers an excellent co-op program - the largest of its kind in the world. Microsoft hires more students from Waterloo than any other university, and whether or not you want to work with them, that's a pretty big endorsement.

CS at Waterloo is pretty intense. Here are some assignments for people who care:
1A
1B
2A 2A

Ultimately though, you'll get out of a school whatever you put into it.

[Brightguy]

Well Dan, I do see what you're saying, and we all know that you think Lakehead's reputation isn't accurate, however I recall you criticising several things about Waterloo in the past as well.

And it makes no sense to compare % of resources going to undergrad programs; you should compare total resources going there.

Also, I think Lakehead's location is relevant. I always joke that nobody cares about Northern Ontario. I'm curious, how did you hear about Lakehead in the first place?

[codemage]

Your resume is probably about as important as your choice of undergrad if you'll be looking at employment.

If you can show after 3+ years of uni that:
You learn new applications / languages / etc. quickly
Your code is smart, thorough, & well commented
You finish what you start
You use time efficiently
You work well as part of a programming team

You'll get hired. If you want to pick where or exactly what you work at, willingness to relocate is key.

[Andy]

cool dude wrote:

but the expenses are too great and before Tony is going to go say Co-op will cover this there is no guarantees you'll get a job in Co-op and also the average ppl make from Co-op out of all their years of studying at Waterloo is around $50,000 - 60,000. this won't cover all the expenses and u won't have a break at all no summers.

Last term, less than 50 people in math/engineering did not find a job placement, so no, most people do find jobs.

I made abit over 10k from ATI last term, so if i got paid the same through out the rest 5 terms, you'd be absolutely right. except NVidia doubled my pay. Morgan and stanley pays 30k USD for 4 months of work. I am already fully independent of my parents, and according to my budgeting, i'll be buying a 20k car in a year.

Like tony said, i'd like to see your parents let you sit on your ass and game for 4 months of the summer.

Quote:

Also i know so many people that graduated from york, ryerson, and other places for CS and have good jobs right after graduation. this shows that does it really matter that much, your still going to get a job eventually and the education will soon not matter much.

define "good jobs" i know alot of waterloo grads who get hired into ATI, IBM, and other big companies right after they graduate. programming a school webpage isnt considered a "good job" in my books

[r.3volved]

Currently in Ontario the #1 choice for IT business is UofW grads. #2 choice is actually Fanshawe College in London. (w00t)

If you really need to feel special and attend a University, and if you can afford UofW and you have the persistence to stay in the program for the complete duration then it is THE BEST choice for you.

Otherwise, quite frankly, Fanshawe pwns any other school in Ontario in regards to both their post-graduation hiring rates and their excellently well-rounded CPA program.

I spent 3 years at Conestoga College for CPA, only to drop out cause it was the worst program I've ever experienced. I am currently entering 3rd year at Fanshawe (I started my own company rather than doing the co-op) and couldn't be more happier with the program. Granted...once I can afford it, I wouldn't mind going to UofW for either CS or Theoretical Physics, but I grew up in Waterloo and just had to get the f out of there.

At least check out what Fanshawe offers (besides the girls and night life). The program here was developed by Garth Santor, a Western grad who now develops DirectX(c++) applications for medical research. We learn UML start to finish, Access/Oracle/M$SQL Server databases, C#, Java, C++ in both a Linux environment and windows environment, we go in-depth into the c++ win32 API, multi-tier application develpment, web applications including PHP and XML, DirectX graphics and more.

Honestly, when I came here, I thought it was going to be pretty easy since Conestoga was such a joke, but we really go in-depth and have excellent educators. The school is very nice, great atmosphere, very friendly...and unlike UofW, it takes less than an hour to walk across campus to your next class

[Tony]

r.3volved wrote:

#2 choice is actually Fanshawe College in London.

Are there any sources on this? I've never heard that name before..

[cool dude]

Tony wrote:

r.3volved wrote:

#2 choice is actually Fanshawe College in London.

Are there any sources on this? I've never heard that name before..

lol i've never heard that school either. @Andy: u got lucky to find such a job but not everybody finds one and not all jobs pay that much. i actually have proof that on average from all your years of learning at Waterloo students can make between $50,000 - $70,000. now can u please stop saying that i will sit on my ass and play video games because thats a really stupid and immature comment to make. firstly, if i'm learning all year and away from my family and friends i would like coming back in the summer to visit them and spend time with them. by taking co-op your travelling around the world not settling down its just hectic. But no if i had the summers off i would not be sitting on my ass i would come back to my family, get a job, hang out with friends, and prolly play absolutely no video games. i don't even play video games now, so really stop saying that, because your making me look like a bum.

[r.3volved]

omg...you guys have seriously never heard about Fanshawe before!?
...London Ontario...1 hour drive on the 401 from Waterloo...excuse me

I did a hell of a lot of research before I chose a school...Conestoga screwed me, so I took the time when choosing another. Ask around at local business. RIM hires a lot of fanshawe grads. Lots of students doing co-op there right now.

Here are some links:
http://www.fanshawec.ca/
http://www.fanshawec.on.ca/programs/20067/cpa2.asp
http://www.fanshawec.on.ca/programs/courses/cpa2.asp (what I currently take)
http://www.fanshawec.on.ca/programs/20067/courses/CPA2.asp (whats offered 2006/07)

If the full CPA isn't your cup of tea, check out their CMP program.
The course is a mobile computing program, meaning that you require a laptop. However the school does offer bursaries that enable you to get your money back for the purchase.

Because everyone has their own lappy, first year starts with about 3 sections and by about 4th semester there is only one section left due to the ineptitude of most students who play video games and watch movies all day in class. We went from approx. 120 students during my first year down to less than 30 going into 5th semester.

EDIT: @Tony...never heard that name before!?

Tony wrote:

between the two Fanshawe appears to be a better option.

I don't know about your marks, but financing your way through Waterloo is not as difficult as you think due to the co-op system. OSAP lets you pay 4 years later with no interest.

I'm sure that you know that Martin is out for a year long work-term in Japan. And he just finished first year of computer science.

http://www.compsci.ca/v2/viewtopic.php?t=9832&highlight=fanshawe

[Andy]

exuse me? lucky? i find that highly offensive.

where are your facts about not everyone is able to find a job? the average may be 50-70k, but thats only the average, if you're competent, you can easily break 80k.

cool dude wrote:

But no if i had the summers off i would not be sitting on my ass i would come back to my family, get a job, hang out with friends, and prolly play absolutely no video games. i don't even play video games now, so really stop saying that, because your making me look like a bum.

have you had a real job before? i mean a real job, not fast food or service jobs. you wont have time to hang out with friends except for the weekends. If you do co op at waterloo, it'll be the exact same thing, you can just work in your home city.