----------------------------------- Aziz Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:56 am CS at University of Windsor ----------------------------------- Anyone go to UofW? I'm planning on going there, but not if the Computer Science program is as dissappointing as St. Clair's was. Hopefully it was only the first year, but my programming courses were sad. With my 3 year diploma from the college, I can get 17 credits at UofW and only have to go for another 3 semester to get the 3 year degree. I can complete it in another year if I can do it in the summer too. But how's the program there? I was considering Waterloo, but it's far away, and woman doesn't really want to leave or live in a city. Plus, they won't accept any transfer credits from a college, so I'd have to start again . . . and I don't have a Chemistry credit :O. Any other school's, though? What about Western, how's its CS program? ----------------------------------- Ultrahex Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:40 pm Re: CS at University of Windsor ----------------------------------- Aziz, you just wrote the most confusing thing ever.... ok who is going to allow the transfer credits, and who is not ? cause you said you can get 17 credits at UW and go for 3 symesters... then you say they won't accept any transfer credits from a college.... * EDIT * Nevermind, I just noticed now ... UofW is Windsor, and UW is waterloo, so damn confusing! ... one must change! ----------------------------------- Aziz Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:28 pm RE:CS at University of Windsor ----------------------------------- and then mix in UWO, University of Western Ontario. Damn. Anyways, you get the point . . . how's windsor's CS program? ----------------------------------- Cervantes Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:01 pm RE:CS at University of Windsor ----------------------------------- Mazer goes there, so he'll probably be able to give you the best answer. All I can say is that when I was choosing a university, Windsor didn't have a very good reputation for CS. ----------------------------------- BenLi Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:12 pm RE:CS at University of Windsor ----------------------------------- and then theres the question of how much significant a difference there is in a "good computer science programs" at Waterloo, and a "not so good CS program" ----------------------------------- ae Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:03 pm Re: CS at University of Windsor ----------------------------------- (I'm late to the party, I know... Very late. Alas.) Waterloo is hardcore. Very much so. If you do show up at Waterloo (and you said you'd have to start it over, which sucks--I know this one for a fact) I'd suggest the 135-136 sequence to start. If you can take 135 with Prabhakar it's usually a good time. Windsor... Not so hardcore. To be honest the first midterm for their 60-100 (Key Concepts of Computer Science) course was easier than the assignments at Waterloo. I've not really had to expend much thought or effort in trying to figure out solutions for problems once I figured out the syntax of Miranda. All I can say is that I know most of this stuff already from the first few months at Waterloo, and looking at the course calendar, even just the first two semesters of CS at Waterloo has taught or introduced many concepts from upper year courses. From what I've seen, the arrangement of the material (in CS, at least) is much better at Waterloo, I'd say, but you go through it faster... It's arranged more logically, and you go into it with greater depth. There's a lot of handwaving about Windsor's teaching of CS--a lot of "take my word for it, this is how it works" and not a lot of "this is why it works, and this is the code that makes it work". Possibly because in Waterloo there's a much larger portion of your classmates that are actually CS students, rather than at Windsor where you're in a class where about 10% are CS kids and the rest of them are scrounging for electives, and many don't even have a very solid math background... Probably different in upper year courses, but I can't see class sizes being very big at all given the strangely small population of CS students in the first year courses. In the end the courses are what you make of them. You get lots of credits at Windsor--it seems like it might not be too bad to step over to Windsor to see if you're interested in what they're teaching. And once you're at Windsor, your university credits (gained from your St. Clair days) might end up being transferable over to Waterloo as university credit (rather than college credit) and might get you further than the very start of first year there, as well... I hear Windsor's reputation is improving (didn't they have one student hired at Google?) but it's still nowhere near Waterloo's reputation... But whether that's a big factor for you or not, who knows. It's probably better to judge on how the university will suit you as a student rather than how your degree will end up looking to employers. I talk too much, I know. I'll shut up now. Summary: Windsor is probably going to be somewhat like St. Clair was to you. Waterloo is hardcore. Western? No clue, as I've heard nothing whatsoever of their CS program. Ever. (...They have a CS program?) ----------------------------------- Dan Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:06 pm RE:CS at University of Windsor ----------------------------------- ae, most of your points there are more about the induvdual teaching style of the proferser then the university. Are you trying to say that windsor's profsers are of a lower quality then waterloo? Also i don't understand how a university can be hardcore or not hardcore..... ----------------------------------- Aziz Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:12 pm RE:CS at University of Windsor ----------------------------------- I understand what he means. And thanks a lot for the post, ae. A great first post, and I'm glad I'm the receiver! By hardcore, I believe he is referring to the fact that Waterloo is much more in depth in CS, meaning they teach advanced algorithms and actual industry standards, etc. St. Clair, at least in first year, wasn't. It was very noobish. Though I am liking the first month of second year much more. Our "advanced VB" class actually taught us about how memory is managed (stack/heap, etc) before we did any coding, and they're trying to teach us how to do GOOD coding, and telling us why things are the way they are, and somewhat how they work in the background. Same goes for my Java course. I live close to Windsor and that is the reason I'd be going to it other than another college - I went to St. Clair, which is in the same city thus I get the credits because they're closely related, and I can stay at home. The staying at home part is important to me. While I wouldn't have a problem living on my own and being independent, my significant other doesn't want to move far away, as she is very close with her family and it would be tough on her. Also, I'm thinking about going into teacher's college afterwards for highschool teacher, perhaps college professor if possible. I have the same view that it's more what I do with my degree than where it comes from. I lot of my classmates aren't doing so well and thus is why I think the course goes more slowly - because it's more of an introductory program not meant for hardcore computer science. But I myself have a passion for computer science, which I think may be the more important part. Again, thanks for your opinion man, and welcome to CompSci.ca! ----------------------------------- McKenzie Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:08 am RE:CS at University of Windsor ----------------------------------- Aziz, if you are thinking about becoming a teacher or prof. why are you at St. Clair? Is the idea to get a solid background before going to University? I'm sure you already know this, but To teach you will need a University degree + Teacher's College, and to be a prof. you will need a Phd. The biggest thing Waterloo has over Windsor is their fantastic Co-op program. Not to say that's the only difference, but it is the only one that would make me want to leave home, be away from my GF, and pay a lot more money. as an aside: If you do end up going to Teacher's College your marks are a big factor in admission. You might find it a bit easier to get high marks at Windsor. ----------------------------------- rdrake Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:53 am RE:CS at University of Windsor ----------------------------------- At the risk of derailing this topic, it should be noted that you could also apply at a university for a concurrent education spot. You can become a teacher in 5 years and avoid going to a separate school for teachers college. ----------------------------------- Dan Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:19 am Re: RE:CS at University of Windsor ----------------------------------- At the risk of derailing this topic, it should be noted that you could also apply at a university for a concurrent education spot. You can become a teacher in 5 years and avoid going to a separate school for teachers college. 4 years if you do not get an hounrs degere but that is becoming a less popular option and is not allways an option for the more science and math based programs. With concurrent education, as rdrake was saying, you take education corces and corses realting to your magor. The last year however is noramly your porfshanl year where you just take education corses (witch are 1/2 a semster) and do student teacher placments. At the end of all this you end up with a batchlers degera in some topic and a eudcation degere. This is how it works at Lakehead any how. ----------------------------------- Aziz Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:38 am RE:CS at University of Windsor ----------------------------------- I didn't see any concurrent programs for CS around here. I'm already in 2nd year college some I'm not changing, that's for sure :D ----------------------------------- Dan Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:15 pm Re: RE:CS at University of Windsor ----------------------------------- I didn't see any concurrent programs for CS around here. I'm already in 2nd year college some I'm not changing, that's for sure :D Lakehead has one! Come to thunder bay :P [/recruitment] ----------------------------------- Aziz Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:57 am RE:CS at University of Windsor ----------------------------------- Yeah. LOL. Thunder bay. Wow. I said I'm not going to Waterloo because it's too far. But Thunder Bay i think is good enough ;) ----------------------------------- ae Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:47 pm Re: CS at University of Windsor ----------------------------------- Thanks Aziz, glad my post was of some sort of use. Although as a strange plot twist I'm actually a she. ;) most of your points there are more about the induvdual teaching style of the proferser then the university. Not as much, from what I've seen and heard. I may not be taking as many CS courses as the rest, but from what I'm told, it's certainly a lot of "here's the code, assemble some stuff, yay". While I know for a fact there were a few of those courses at Waterloo (mostly the beginner Java course) it seems that the courses on algorithms and the "behind the scenes" of programming hardly touch upon the core of the functions they're building on. I'm saying that I've spent a lot of time in group labs explaining to people what the code that they were given does, and how this should affect how they build a function with, say, map, and why their program is yelling at them because they're giving it a list but it wants an element. I'm saying, overall, that I think a lot of these people would benefit a lot of they were sat down and had to build foldr, and map, and that sort of thing, before they build on it. Or at least understand it more thoroughly. And this is from the professor who was just awarded a prestigious teaching award; I'm assuming his work his high quality and I don't have any problems with his teaching otherwise, he's a very good prof. I think it's a curriculum thing, mostly. Then again I'm also thinking a few people would also benefit from a language more like Scheme--it would clear up a lot of the "err... it wants this? what? how many things do I need to give it?" blank stares in labs, as people would have to set out what the function needs all the time... Miranda has its benefits, though (mostly syntactically) but I'm not so sure it was the best possible choice for an intro class (I also think throwing recursion at people the second or third day of class when people are still trying to figure out the language was a bit foolish too, but alas). Are you trying to say that windsor's profsers are of a lower quality then waterloo? I don't believe so, no. I'm mostly trying to say the following (but I suck at explaining myself, and brevity is definitely a weak point, my apologies): --- At Waterloo, your classmates will likely mostly be mathies or compsci students. --- At Waterloo, if you take the right path, you'll be dealing with a curriculum that gives you a tour of algorithm building starting from the ground up, so that if you happen to run across some language that doesn't have such fun things as map or foldr or reverse or anything like that built in, you can build it if need be, and know when you need it and why. --- At Waterloo, the environment is more geared towards CS for future courses and for practical application during co-op terms. Comparatively: --- At Windsor, your classmates will probably be mostly non-programmers who are not looking for any sort of future in CS but are there to fill an elective, which makes the course go by a lot less rapidly since a lot of the material has to be recovered or elaborated on. Thus leaving plenty of time to abuse class wifi to browse compsci.ca blog and stumble across really old posts in this forum and respond to them (gasp!). --- At Windsor, the default is "here's this function, here's a brief explanation of function, okay now use this function with this function and do this assignment" --- At Windsor, the environment is more geared towards (in this class, at least) "CS is cool, this is what sort of cool stuff that can be done with it, take CS" I'm not in any way saying Windsor's profs are lesser--I daresay there's a few profs at Waterloo I found lacking but I won't name names, it's not really that relevant. I'm sick of getting the "You're not lesser for going to Windsor" speech though, got that four or five times the first week. It's just the attitude towards CS that's entirely different between the two universities; there's no right or wrong choice between the two, I can assure everyone of that. Like Aziz was describing, Windsor feels very "noobish" at least from a view of first year. Waterloo pretty much starts from the good coding/stack/heap/etc. sort of attitude and builds up; Windsor starts in a very introductory way, although I suspect that in upper years, when the courses don't have a 90% population of non-CS-majors, the curriculum will get more serious (less introductory) and the information covered will be identical or close enough to it as. Although as a benefit, there are more people (grad students, tutors, etc.) assigned to help the CS courses at Windsor, so you get a lot more tutor time if you want/need it. Disclaimer: I go to Windsor and went to Waterloo for over a year, there is nothing wrong with either of them. They're both great universities, but they do have a very different idea of CS, at least in the introductory courses. Then again, your mileage may vary, some terms and conditions may apply, etc. (As a fun fact of the day, I spotted a CS prof here wearing a University of Waterloo shirt. ;)) And I do promise to shorten my posts in the future, I ramble way too much. :shock: ----------------------------------- Aziz Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:13 pm RE:CS at University of Windsor ----------------------------------- You post was very informative, so no complaints about the length, and I apologize for my previous assumtion, ma'am, it's just that we don't get much lady folk around these parts :P. Anyways, even in the first month of "advanced application development using vb" and java courses I'm much more satisfied. Especially with my VB teacher. He's explaining a lot of thinks and we've only used drag-and-drop for using data sources to review what we learned last year. Today we did a "half-code" example, and tomorrow apparantly we're coding to be doing it all coded. I'm hoping the fact that it is college and is supposed to prepare a graduate for a job is suggesting the place is going to get better as the semesters go on, and I hope Windsor is like that, too. And I do believe that Windsor has Co-op for CS programs, I thought I saw that when I skimmed Maclean's Universtiy review last week. ----------------------------------- Tony Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:09 pm Re: RE:CS at University of Windsor ----------------------------------- it's just that we don't get much lady folk around these parts :P. I'm here to ban you from the internet. http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/pix_plz.png ----------------------------------- Mazer Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:22 pm RE:CS at University of Windsor ----------------------------------- I would almost say that this thread was going well. ----------------------------------- Aziz Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:36 am RE:CS at University of Windsor ----------------------------------- :/ cant i take an IOU for that ban? ----------------------------------- Prabhakar Ragde Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:33 pm Re: CS at University of Windsor ----------------------------------- Windsor... Not so hardcore. To be honest the first midterm for their 60-100 (Key Concepts of Computer Science) course was easier than the assignments at Waterloo. I've not really had to expend much thought or effort in trying to figure out solutions for problems once I figured out the syntax of Miranda. I'm a little surprised that they're using Miranda when Haskell is pretty much established as its successor. Though I wouldn't use either in a first course, especially if only 10% of the class are CS majors. Maybe the error messages are more gentle in the Miranda system. Hugs/GHC stump me occasionally, and I understand type inference. I'm also curious as to how much the functional approach is carried on in the rest of the curriculum, or if they just drop it and use C/C++/Java. I'm guessing the latter based on the calendar course descriptions. --PR