----------------------------------- Mazer Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:35 pm Riddle me this, Batman. ----------------------------------- Does anyone happen to know the details involved in a bird (like a raven) folding it's wings back to it's sides after landing? It seems like a pretty awkward thing to accomplish but their wings end up flat (well, curved) against their body. Google turned up: 1) Some guy who actually seems to be trying to accomplish something similar to my own goal (didn't get anything useful from it though) 2) What appears to be lesson plans for elementary school kids examing bird wings and bat (bugs) wings. 3) Some origami. PS, [url=http://dev.origami.com/diagram_load.cfm?pdfname=dragon_ce_25.pdf]WOW! (it's a PDF) Well, nothing that answers my question. Any of you happen to know? If you have any diagrams or video show it (skeletal, or otherwise) clearly, please let me know. ----------------------------------- Delos Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:47 am ----------------------------------- I've dug up a couple of interesting papers on the matter. One looks at the Tail patterns of a pigeon during flight, lift off, landing, etc. The other looks at computerizing animations of flight models. Then there's a book I found with some info on bats (Ha, tie in to the title!) specifically a section on their wings and how they fold. - TAIL MUSCLE ACTIVITY PATTERNS IN WALKING AND FLYING PIGEONS (COLUMBA LIVIA). Gatesy and Dial. 1995. - Animating bird flight using aerodynamics. Ramakrishnananda and Wong. 1999. - The Biology of Bats. Neuweiler. 2000. For the bats one, check out pg. 14 for the reference. So, Coutsos, what exactly are you up to? Edit: BTW, that origami pwns! I'm *so* making that later today ----------------------------------- wtd Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:15 am ----------------------------------- The field you want to look into is biomechanics. ----------------------------------- Mazer Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:00 am ----------------------------------- I'm trying to animate a bird (low poly, for use in a game). It doesn't need to be perfect, but I don't polygons sticking out at obscure angles (does anyone remember the ravens in Metal Gear Solid? When at rest the wings (looks like they were two polygons each) folded upward). And heck, my curiousity won't let go. ----------------------------------- Delos Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:31 am ----------------------------------- wtd has a good point there. I would also suggest going to your local museum and getting your hands on a complete skeleton of a bird. Take as many photos as you can of its wings in various positions and use that to model your animation on. A good bird anatomy book might be helpful too; depends on how well you can understand the figures. Track down the animation article from above, it's got some pretty pictures in it. It's also full of algorithms, so maybe you'll be inspired. ----------------------------------- Andy Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:56 am ----------------------------------- local museum... HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! does windsor even have a museum? i think the closest we have is an art gallery, and by we i mean you. yum, lol! ----------------------------------- Mazer Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:45 pm ----------------------------------- Are you referring to the SIGGRAPH article? If so, I've seen it and while the videos were undoubtedly cool to watch, they don't really cover the kind of thing I'm looking for. The one I saw was about modelling a bird's flight using physics, but all I really want is to see how the wing folds. Anyways, having never actually been to a museum I have to wonder if they'd even let somebody touch a skeleton (or if it would help me... I can imagine the bones moving but I have to see the feathers too). And as jerkface said, I don't know if there is a museum in the area. ----------------------------------- Delos Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:52 pm ----------------------------------- I was referring to the one I had mentioned in my first post...as for museums, if you ask *really* nicely they might. Or, you could always walk around for a while until you find a dead bird on the side of the road and use that as your muse. I would wear gloves if I were you. ----------------------------------- Mazer Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:02 pm ----------------------------------- Dead birds are sad, Delos. Like, Gladiator sad. 'cept without the crying. Fortunately I can avoid the avian autopsies for now! Chalk one up for Flickr! not enough bats though ----------------------------------- wtd Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:50 pm ----------------------------------- Seriously, though, find a local university and ask if you can talk to a biology professor about this. You'll want to look at how the joints are structured, where the musculature is located, and how tendons and ligaments connect. ----------------------------------- [Gandalf] Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:06 pm ----------------------------------- Is it really that important for him to get the wings to fold decently that he would go out and do all this in-depth research? I mean, they don't have to be exactly life-like, just believable. This all seems a bit like overkill to me. Unless you're just that interested in the topic... It doesn't need to be perfect ----------------------------------- Mazer Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:22 pm ----------------------------------- Yeah, not really perfect (alot of the detail would probably be lost in this particular case), but it was interesting to know anyway. I think the real problem about going to a biology professor about it (aside from finding one [I don't know any]) is that I'd feel like I'm wasting their time about something pretty insignificant. I'd also be going pretty far out of my way for one question. Unless I were to email a professor... ----------------------------------- wtd Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:57 pm ----------------------------------- "]Is it really that important for him to get the wings to fold decently that he would go out and do all this in-depth research? I mean, they don't have to be exactly life-like, just believable. This all seems a bit like overkill to me. Unless you're just that interested in the topic... It is a really interesting topic. :) ----------------------------------- Mazer Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:11 pm ----------------------------------- Actually, looking at some of these pictures on Flickr (and the many pictures I've looked through last night) I've begun to notice that birds are really interesting. I probably haven't noticed it before because all of the birds in my area are small and boring (that's when you even see them at all). There's alot of robbins and other such things, or seagulls if you're nearby some abandoned food, but nothing really cool. ----------------------------------- wtd Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:48 pm ----------------------------------- Actually, sometimes the small birds are the really interesting ones. You have to take all of that complexity and put it in a small package. Here's something to think about. How do perching birds sleep and stay perched on a branch? :) ----------------------------------- Delos Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:48 pm ----------------------------------- Yeah, not really perfect (alot of the detail would probably be lost in this particular case), but it was interesting to know anyway. I think the real problem about going to a biology professor about it (aside from finding one I would not worry about upsetting the profs with questions. Find one (not necassarily at your own uni) who studies birds a fair amount and send them an email, explaining briefly that you're not a Bio student but your current project requires this expertise. Most profs will be flattered that you contacted them regarding something they do for a living and will give you a decent reply (if at the least referring you to someone better suited). Profs tend to like questions that aren't simply "give me the answer" but, "I'm interested in this for the sake of know about it, and I don't really care if what I know is right or wrong - I just want to know more".) Actually, there's a prof here at MAC who studies birds quite a bit...and when I say a bit I mean he introduces himself with a little exercise involving bird-skulls and references to the number 42... ----------------------------------- Mazer Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:24 pm ----------------------------------- Good points all around. Thanks for all that, guys. :) If you'll excuse me, I should get started on this bird!