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Give me a reason to stay

Author:	wtd [ Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Give me a reason to stay
I came here in hopes I could inpart a bit of my knowledge, and I see a lot of examples of that not happening. I write over and over again about why IDEs are bad for beginners, and they flock to them in droves, then post about the myriad problems they have... that never would have arisen in a command-line environment. I tell people not to tackle languages like C, C++, Java, etc. as their first language (or first after Turing)... and they do anyway, then post questions that never would have arisen if they'd listened to me... How many people here think I'm a crackpot who doesn't know what he's talking about?

Author:	[Gandalf] [ Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:39 pm ]
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No, don't leave , you have got to be at the very top of contributing members, and personally, I really do think you are the best programmer here. There's always going to be some people who do not listen, but then for every one of them there is someone who does. Usually. I wrote the whole tutorial on how to get started without IDE's to make it easier for people, but they seem to just want to take the 'windows' approach. Too bad for them, they lost a good learning tool. Personally, I started C++ because I had long thought of it, and I didn't really want to go for any other language since I had enough of that kind of programming from Turing. That's since I have been using Turing for something like 4 or 5 years! Anyone who thinks you are a crackpot is more than probably something like it themselves, they don't know what they are talking about. If they stayed long enough they would be proven wrong. I, for one really want you to stay and think you are a huge addition to our community. You have helped me get a fairly good starting grip on C++ when otherwise I think I would have given up, and I think I will benefit from that extra knowledge and help. Don't get discouraged because of the people who don't listen and will probably not get anywhere far. It would be a big loss.

Author:	Cervantes [ Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:54 pm ]
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No wtd! Say it isn't so! The sad truth is no matter how much wisdom you've got and no matter how much you tell them otherwise, there will always be people who choose to go their own way. However, there are plenty of people here who recognize and heed your wisdom. Don't feel down if some don't; that's unavoidable, no matter who you are. Those people who go elsewhere (Java, C++, etc.) will stumble, as you suggested; they will need help. You are an incredible contributor, wtd, and helping all the misguided souls would be much more difficult without you. Perhaps you should put links to such topics as What Programming Language to Learn? in your signature, in the hope that when you make a post advising learning different language, the person will then follow that link and get a detailed explanation.

Author:	Martin [ Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:00 pm ]
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I, on the other hand, think you're a crackpot. Apple computers? Ruby? Yeesh...

Author:	wtd [ Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:03 pm ]
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Martin wrote: I, on the other hand, think you're a crackpot. Apple computers? Ruby? Yeesh... Degenerate Microsoft fanboy.

Author:	wtd [ Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:05 pm ]
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Cervantes wrote: Those people who go elsewhere (Java, C++, etc.) will stumble, as you suggested; they will need help. You are an incredible contributor, wtd, and helping all the misguided souls would be much more difficult without you. Yet, every time I help someone with one of these languages, I just make it easier for them to stay on what is, at that point in time, the wrong path. Also, if I'm a good contributor... where's the interest in the stuff I post? Most of it never garners a single reply.

Author:	md [ Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:20 pm ]
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Well... some of it is about languages I personally have no desire to learn... I think you should stay because you do help those who need it; even if they are doing the wrong thing (although learning C++ isn't nessarily wrong). I think in the end though the only reason for you to stay is because you want to. And who knows; maybe taking a break from helping people out and just posting interesting code (preferably code in C/C++ or pascal or basic so I can understand it ) is all that is really needed.

Author:	wtd [ Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:26 pm ]
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Cornflake wrote: (although learning C++ isn't nessarily wrong) As I said, it's the wrong choice at certain points. Early in one's education, it has no redeeming features for someone with no previous experience (or with just Turing experience) learning to program.

Author:	Cervantes [ Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:29 pm ]
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wtd wrote: Also, if I'm a good contributor... where's the interest in the stuff I post? Most of it never garners a single reply. One could argue that you make things so clear that there is no need to ask questions.

Author:	rizzix [ Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:40 pm ]
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wtd wrote: Also, if I'm a good contributor... where's the interest in the stuff I post? Most of it never garners a single reply. Its not your fault,, i know what you mean.. just give it a year or two,,, some generations are usually less interested than the others.. As to why ppl opt for C++/Java given that they have been warned, it's cuz those are the most popular languages out there! They believe so anyways, and they could be right !?! These folks hate being left out-of-touch from the rest of the world.... "missconception! the world uses a lot more languages, than the boring old C++ or Java", and so you say. Yes.. but they dont see it that way... after all most of them haven't even heard of a language called Perl or Ruby or Python,, until they actually visit this site (or some other site for that matter).. but C++, heavens! thats the most talked about programming language in the world! Now as for the comments or replys to your various posts.. well look at the age group we are targeting here... highschool students! i mean hey, they have the shortest attention span you can possibly imagine.. they only look for the most exciting thing they can do,, and quickist thing they can possibly do. Yes they are impatient, which is problematic: you'd need to device a totally new style of tutorials to grab their attention, but of course if only you are really all that interested: maybe something more animative? ugh! They want to show off their skills to their friends.. And the quicker they can get it done the better it is.. If it takes too long, they will drop it, and go with the shottest other alternative.. as for those who are _actually_ interested in programming,, they prefer to take the more _popular_ route and it's like this: the popular ones first,, the others later,, but only if they still sustain that same drive or interest. Oh well.. get over it!.. You'll observe that some generations are quite different from the others: they prefer to take the "best advised" path to programming.

Author:	rizzix [ Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:41 pm ]
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Cervantes wrote: One could argue that you make things so clear that there is no need to ask questions. Thats not what he meant.. Maybe a little "thank you"??

Author:	wtd [ Fri Jul 08, 2005 5:03 pm ]
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Here's the thing folks: You want to learn the most popular programming language out there. That's a good idea, right? You couldn't be more wrong. Learn the most popular language and you'll be a little fish lost in a sea of sharks. Do something different and you can stand out and do something meaningful.

Author:	Delos [ Fri Jul 08, 2005 5:56 pm ]
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Well, Turing is about as different as they get . Then again, I doubt it actually counts as a programming language. Now you do realize that if you left some person would sick the FBI/mounties on you, since we really can't have Clones walking about. Especially Tony's! I guess this is a good a time as any to tell you that for some reason (probably your old avatar) I've always read your name as "what the duck". Just me. No, I don't want to know what it really means. You'll always be 'what the duck' to me.

Author:	wtd [ Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:11 pm ]
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Delos wrote: I guess this is a good a time as any to tell you that for some reason (probably your old avatar) I've always read your name as "what the duck". Just me. No, I don't want to know what it really means. You'll always be 'what the duck' to me. Heh. It's a short version of "Welcome to Darwin", which is the message you get upon opening a terminal window in Mac OS X. My avatar was Hexley, the Darwin mascot. And Turing counts as a programming language. Just not an especially great one.

Author:	Mazer [ Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:42 pm ]
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Delos wrote: I've always read your name as "what the duck". Just me. No, I don't want to know what it really means. You'll always be 'what the duck' to me. It wasn't just you. We talked about it way back when on the IRC channel (y'know, the one that everyone always goes to), but I agree, it'll always be what the duck.

Author:	wtd [ Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:45 pm ]
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Hexley is a duck-billed platypus.

Author:	Mazer [ Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:57 pm ]
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Hence my original confusion. And my current stubbornness

Author:	Notoroge [ Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:52 pm ]
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I guess the main reason why no one listens to you is because they don't know what Ruby is, and/or don't think it to be as "powerful" as other programming languages advertise (I disagree with that statement, btw). I've actually been learning Perl. Awsome interpreted language, and I can use it for CGI programming later on. Although I have been learning Ruby on the site. (That 'Why' guy is one crazy weirdo). But yeah, there is a lack of interest. So my opinion? Make it interesting. Tell us why we should start off with console programming languages. Also, writing some nifty apps to show what these language can really do would give a type of "" factor that might just be the deciding push in making someone want to learn these. In conclusion, if anything, you have a lot of work ahead of you, instead of just quiting and going "Screw it".

Author:	Cervantes [ Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:06 pm ]
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Notoroge wrote: In conclusion, if anything, you have a lot of work ahead of you, instead of just quiting and going "Screw it". No one's forcing him to do anything, of course. It's all "if he wants to". Notoroge wrote: Also, writing some nifty apps to show what these language can really do would give a type of "" factor that might just be the deciding push in making someone want to learn these. I think this is a really good idea. The Ruby Source Code forum is so bare.

Author:	[Gandalf] [ Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:56 pm ]
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Hey, ya... I remember that guy: You see, the original reason why I wanted to start C++ was to help modify two of my more favourite games which are open-source in a manner of speaking. Now I just learned it since, well... that was my choice between Java, and C++ - I just wanted to learn something harder than Turing that I could then relate to other languages. It seems like I have somewhat succeeded, Turing introduced me (excluding my amazing BASIC knowledge), and now C++ is teaching me, if not how to create things with it, at least the basics of all programming languages. Personally, I think I made a good choice, and that if I want to switch to something else, Java, C#, even VB.NET, or a variety of others, it will be easier. I know anything would have contributed too, Ruby, Python, and others, but I'm content. I totally agree with "Learn the most popular language and you'll be a little fish lost in a sea of sharks. Do something different and you can stand out and do something meaningful." If you simply want to be better than everyone else, do something where you don't have as much competition . I think I will quote you on that one. Seriously, I think you have contributed to this forum enough for 10 people. If you don't continue, the 'medium level' language section may well fall apart. Would you want all these future programmers only learning Turing? If you want, take a break, don't post as much, maybe others will smarten up. Either way, you should really just not pay attention to those who don't follow your advice, and then as for help when they fall. Hope you make the right choice!

Author:	Notoroge [ Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:13 pm ]
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Cervantes wrote: Notoroge wrote: In conclusion, if anything, you have a lot of work ahead of you, instead of just quiting and going "Screw it". No one's forcing him to do anything, of course. It's all "if he wants to". I know. Just saying, there's more things you can do then just not doing anything.

Author:	lyam_kaskade [ Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:23 pm ]
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Notoroge wrote: (That 'Why' guy is one crazy weirdo) Yes! Hex-editing reality to give us infinite grenades! Anyway, if it helps, it was your posts wtd that made me decide to learn Ruby. And then when I realized how much easier a command line was (in Ruby, I had never used one in Turing, since there isn't one). Yeah that was pretty awesome. I like the idea of showing different apps made with Ruby, even if it's not your own, it still gives a good impression of the extent of what can be done with Ruby. Many newer programmers don't really realize that almost all C++ programming can be done in Ruby (or another scripting language) within a fraction of the time.[/quote]

Author:

wtd [ Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:13 pm ]

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What kind of app would pique your interest?

The primary reason I haven't is that I don't want to invest huge amounts of time in a single program, then have everyone look at it and say "meh".

That and I like to keep examples small. That means things remain approachable. I mean, there are so many cases where someone set out to modify some giant project, for instance, and realized they really have no idea and are in over there head.

I don't want to do that to people. I don't want to get so fancy so fast that it scares people away.

That's why I hate C++ as a teaching language, for what it's worth. To understand "hello world" you have to understand preprocessor includes, namespaces, functions, types, objects, and operator overoading. That's a few semesters worth of classes at a college, just to understand the frickin' "hello world" program.

Ruby:

puts "Hello world"

Python:

print "Hello world"

Perl:

print "Hello world\n";

Ocaml:

print_endline "Hello world"

Author:

md [ Sat Jul 09, 2005 8:36 am ]

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Your right; when just learning C++ is usually WAY too much to get a grasp of at once. It isn't that bad if you start learning it after already knowing how to use functions and function overloading and structures. So really we need to be pushing people to learn something that does that. I personally learned pascal first, it's easy to learn yet very powerful at the same time; and you can just point the compiler at your mail file and it will get the rest on it's own.

Example pascal "Hello World" for wtd's list:

Pascal:

program HelloWorld;
begin
writeln('Hello World');
end.

Author:	Notoroge [ Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:37 am ]
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Well, technically, you don't need the carriage return at the end of the "print" statement in perl. 8) If you want to see something neat, go here: http://www.roesler-ac.de/wolfram/hello.htm And this: http://www.defectiveyeti.com/archives/000494.html

Author:	Tony [ Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:22 pm ]
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wtd wrote: Learn the most popular language and you'll be a little fish lost in a sea of sharks. Do something different and you can stand out and do something meaningful. I'm sure I've said this before, but wtd's insparation to get me to learn Ruby -- I've got my first co-op job doing just that. And I absolutly loved it! It's interesting because as far as I understand.. out of all the applications, I was the only one with "Ruby" on my resume. They weren't even looking for a first-year student, and I still was the first pick for them. Thx wtd Come on guys -- China and India are learning C++ and Java now. That's 2 billion people you'll be in competition with wtd -- you should stay because.. we love you

Author:	wtd [ Sat Jul 09, 2005 2:14 pm ]
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Notoroge wrote: Well, technically, you don't need the carriage return at the end of the "print" statement in perl. You do if you want it to behave like all of the other examples I gave. The thing that's technically not necessary is the semi-colon at the end of the line. Perl technically only uses the semi-colon as a statement/expression separator, not a terminator.

Author:	Martin [ Sat Jul 09, 2005 2:55 pm ]
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I think with V3 we'll have the tutorial thing streamlined more so that people can comment on tutorials without them feeling like they are in some way ruining the post.

Author:	Notoroge [ Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:22 pm ]
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In v3, ther eshould be a WIKI system implemented for various languages. That way the forums can be left for discussions.

Author:	wtd [ Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:27 pm ]
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The problem is that no good tutorial is a dead document. They grow and evolve with discussion. Discussion doesn't ruin... it enriches a tutorial.

Author:	Mazer [ Sat Jul 09, 2005 8:37 pm ]
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Notoroge wrote: In v3, ther eshould be a WIKI system implemented for various languages. That way the forums can be left for discussions. With some restrictions, I hope. We don't need more assholes coming and spamming the wiki claiming we're all nerds. Perhaps a minimum post count for wiki editting permissions?

Author:	Hikaru79 [ Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:54 pm ]
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I'm sorry I got to this thread so late -- I've been busy and just now have had time to get back to being online regularly. wtd, as I'm sure you know by now, you're as close as I have to a role model when it comes to computer science. You started my interest in Ruby and Haskell, taught me enough SQL for me to be able to dive into it more fully, and basically have served as my example of what a computer programmer should be like -- innovative, knowledgable, helpful, open-minded, and original. There are just too many people out there who have never displayed an ounce of your originality and wide variety of knowledge, and they never will. I think it's safe to say that, when I get on IRC and join the plethora of programming-related channels I go to (read: idle in), you are the only one who is consistently excited about something new you've learned, some interesting obscure yet useful piece of knowledge. You're always learning. That's what I want to be like when I grow up. You know, as we discuss on IRC, that I read whichever of your tutorials I get my hands on. I play with them, I learn from them. I'm sorry that I've always taken it for granted that my gratitude for them was implied -- thank you, wtd, for opening mine (and a lot of us here's) eyes about what programming is about. So, basically, don't leave, wtd. What would any community be without its resident guru?

Author:	wtd [ Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:58 pm ]
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Thanks, Hikaru79.

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