Computer Science Canada

Windows 8
Author:  Beastinonyou [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:24 am ]
Post subject:  Windows 8
Here you can criticize or praise Windows 8

What are your initial impressions?
What do you like/dislike?

Overall judgement? etc.

Personally, I don't like it. It feels like they just tacked on a tablet-oriented UI onto Windows 7.
Author:  Tony [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Windows 8
Beastinonyou @ Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:24 am wrote:
It feels like they just tacked on a tablet-oriented UI onto Windows 7.

Well they _are_ releasing a tablet...
Author:  mirhagk [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:06 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
The tablet is kinda the point. The point is pretty much that it is a tablet UI that is tacked onto windows 7.

For me, it's a crappy desktop/laptop OS and I won't update to it. It is however an amazing tablet OS in that every program you already have runs on it, it has full keyboard support (and games might actually use the keyboard instead of just onscreen thumbsticks) and it allows you to the entire freedom you have with desktop computers.

If the pro tablet is priced right then I will almost certainly get it. I don't have a tablet because to me they are useless (no modern games, just arcade like games, no steam, terrible to type anything with, inefficent UI, no sharing of info between apps, and worst of all, no programming on them), but windows 8 and the pro tablet cure most of the problems for me (still typing will be annoying, and it's a 10 inch screen, but at least it's 1080 still).

I doubt that it will be anywhere near as popular as the iPad with casual users, and probably not as popular as android tablets with many in the nerd community, but it might still make a splash, and it works well in a business area. For instance my work will probably be purchasing them because some of the doctors and reserchers have been wanting to use iPad's, but we didn't want to support an entirely new platform just for a couple people, but these tablets will by default already work with our system.

TLDNR: Windows 8 as a desktop/laptop OS: worse than windows 7, too much stuff tacked on
Windows 8 as a tablet OS: Can I haz noa plz?
Author:  vahnx [ Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
I'm not a fan of metro but I love the desktop mode. It's more lightweight than 7 + Vista and has some awesome features, such as more information when copying files/task manager. http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/
Author:  mirhagk [ Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:01 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
I don't think I'll ever install windows 8 on a desktop/good laptop. I will however be ecstatic about the release of the windows 8 tablets, and will give the non-ARM surface. (if I can get university textbooks as eBooks perhaps)
Author:  ProgrammingFun [ Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
I'm sure you've already heard of this but it's interesting nonetheless.
Author:  mirhagk [ Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
Yeah, windows 8 is a terrible direction if your looking from the desktop/laptop perspective. From the tablet perspective, it's amazing though.

Also most of Gabe's complaints have no merit. He thinks they are going to close off everything, and limit competitors access to it. If they really planned on doing that they wouldn't be giving free access to the OS to anyone who wants to download it during nearly the entire development cycle. Also microsoft has lost of money for not giving competitors access to their stuff, and I'm pretty sure they won't go down that road again.
Author:  wtd [ Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:03 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
Except that it's not amazing as a tablet OS. Way too much stuff that still isn't tablet-friendly.
Author:  Insectoid [ Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:20 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
People are probably going to treat the tablets like consoles in terms of gaming, at least at first. With the iPad, the standardized hardware let people download whatever they wanted and it would just work, as long as it's compatible with iPad 2 or whichever iPad you have. System requirements were a thing of the past; all they had to check was which iPads were supported (if even).

On Win8 tablets, I suspect people are going to act the same way, and then there's going to be an uproar when Half-Life 3 doesn't run on their tablet and they don't know why. There are people who've never installed a PC game. They grew up with consoles where the game just works. These same people play games on iPads or iPhones, and they will play games on Win8 tablets. Win8 will be the first time these people ever have to consider system requirements, and it will take them by surprise.


Btw, that last paragraph is pure speculation, however I think it very likely for much of the 12-and-under crowd. At any rate, you can usually trust Gabe's business sense. Just because Microsoft is giving early Win8 access to devs, doesn't mean Win8 is dev-friendly. It will let devs be even lazier in their console-to-PC ports though; they can just list a game controller with thumbsticks as a system requirement and drop keyboard/mouse support altogether.
Author:  mirhagk [ Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:59 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
How??? How does windows 8 magically allow developers to list a game controller with thumbsticks as a system requirement on a device that's harder to get a game controller than it is on PC.

The ports of console-PC aren't going to get lazier, the only difference is there is now a touch screen, and they could make use of the touch screen. What will get lazier is PC-tablet ports, because everyone has a keyboard, so games can finally support it on tablets. (I hate onscreen controls for 90% of touch screen games, they are just lazy mimics of a keyboard and mouse).

I agree about the requirements thing, it was the exact same when people started using android, and iPhone started coming out with new generations (only recently did iOS get support for telling people they can't play games, before that it was a pain in the ass because games wouldn't tell you their specs, and they wouldn't play on older generations sometimes). If anything windows 8 tablets are the most friendly to it, because stores can easily query all the available hardware (just like they have for all of windows history) and tell a user whether they can run them. There's also that windows score that could be used.
Author:  DemonWasp [ Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:00 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
Good:
- redesigned task manager
- somewhat faster
- fewer huge sections of "glass" in Aero-based UI
- hybrid boot is cool
- "snap" still works

Bad:
- new UI that ignores all previous UI research Microsoft has ever conducted
- Ribbon UI in Explorer
- forced integration of other Microsoft ecosystem (xbox live, etc)
- still no support for non-NFTS, non-FAT filesystems
- still no good default shell
- still no package management (though there is the Windows Store)
- still no open specification of their RAID and RAID-like systems, so good luck using those from other operating systems
- still consumes 15+GB
- still has limited recovery tools and options
- still no live-CD option
- still no multiple desktop
- everything seems to be very closed-off, very locked-down, very Microsoft-only

Good and Bad:
- locked down version of IE10 (good: security; bad: lockdown)

Overall, it looks like it'll be a fun system to play around with or have on your console. I would really prefer my development workhorse to be powered by Linux though -- the ecosystem there is superior for developers (though inferior for gamers and people who like Flash video).
Author:  mirhagk [ Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:09 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
Lol so most of the bad points aren't things they added, but rather the fact it isn't linux. I agree that this is never going on my development laptop, and I sincerely hope my work machine won't be "upgraded". But I am for sure getting the first tablet that I can actually program on, with a decent IDE, and compilation on the device. (and the use of nearly any programming language, being able to use all of them on the device). While I won't be doing major devving on the device, it gives me something fun to do while I sit on the bus.
Author:  2goto1 [ Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:40 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
Fun will likely be a placebo effect with a Windows 8 tablet. With an iPad you can't go wrong.
Author:  Insectoid [ Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
Considering the controller argument, it doesn't seem impossible that games devs would agree on a standard game controller layout (let's call it SGC). This layout would closely match existing game controllers for easy porting. Then you just need hardware manufacturers to release cheap SGC-compliant controllers and list an SGC-certified controller as a requirement. As it takes off, higher-end manufacturers would make high-quality SGC controllers. Not saying it will happen, but that it could. The tablet industry is still so young there's no telling what will happen and this seems viable.

Now for something completely different. The iPad has a major benefit Windows does not: It's 99% idiotproof. Users don't get to see files. Users don't get to tweak the OS. Users don't get to install anything non-Apple approved without jailbreaking. The iPad is a closed system. Win8 is not.

Openness is important for general computing because the people who know what they're doing need to be able to do the things they know how to do. However, it's also important to not let people who don't know what they're doing do the things they don't know how to do. When I worked in a tech shop, most of the issues were caused by people touching things they had no business touching. Even if the iPad had a system32.exe, you could not delete it. Depending on the audience, the closed model of the iPad is its greatest strength and most crippling weakness.

Win8 tries to offer the power and openness of a desktop operating system with the closedness of a tablet system. It won't work. The ignorant tablet users will go into desktop mode and screw around with files. They'll still happily install scareware, because just being on a tablet doesn't make you immune to idiocy. The people who *do* know what they're doing will be putting up with loads of extra anti-idiot safeguards that hinder their project.


Closed systems are good for the people that need them. Open systems are good for the people that need them. Mixed systems are no good for anyone.
Author:  mirhagk [ Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
The iPad is already losing out on the tablet market for most of the reasons you already described. Windows 8 isn't a mixed system, it's a touchscreen based interface mixed with a marketplace/app system tacked on top of a fully usable OS. You can completely ignore anything but the normal OS if you wish, which makes it the first general purpose tablet, and the first tablet where you could actually seriously consider replacing a laptop.

I never thought that the freedom windows 8 gave people could be considered against it lol, especially considering android has been dominating in the phone marketplace for that very same reason (I'm not sure about tablets since it's still new there).

Also the controller won't work for the same reason detachable keyboards don't work with other tablets. If not everyone has it, it's useless. If they don't force everyone to have it, most won't. And plus a controller is hella awkward to carry compared to a tablet.
Author:  randint [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Windows 8 Criticisms
From what I read, Windows 8 is going to use OA 3.0 for "OEM" activation...maybe OEM-SLP does not exist anymore. This is bad, people have to manually activate the Windows OS every time they try to re-install, and it looks like Microsoft is charging a certain amount of money for OEMs to manually install the systems. This creates more work.

Anyway, I am not familiar with this Metro language (I am using Java for application development). This Windows 8 has some weird interface that is completely deviated from whatever Windows 7 or previous versions of Windows uses. I think that it would become harder to use.

Anyway, it will be released 2012-10-26, a little less than 3 months away from today.
Author:  Sur_real [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:28 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
It's been leaked so if you know where to look, you can download it. But for $40 I see no reason to pirate since it's so cheap now...

although I guess some people will want it early
Author:  Insectoid [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:33 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
As long as money's charged for it, people will try to pirate it.
Author:  mirhagk [ Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:05 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
Unfortuneately that's true. That's why Apple won't let people install OS X on non-Apple hardware. You can't pirate hardware, so they force you to pay at least $1000 to get your hands on the OS.
Author:  Sur_real [ Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:41 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
mirhagk @ Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:05 am wrote:
Unfortuneately that's true. That's why Apple won't let people install OS X on non-Apple hardware. You can't pirate hardware, so they force you to pay at least $1000 to get your hands on the OS.


No wonder their OSes are really cheap compared to Windows, they already took all your money on the hardware!

Yeah I guess that's the trade-off.
But I think piracy might have actually helped Microsoft since more people = bigger ecosystem and so more developers will make software on Windows than on Mac
Author:  mirhagk [ Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:39 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
Piracy may or may not have helped them. (Personally I think their biggest market is the business world so it just probably hasn't had any affect). And mac's OS's are really cheap, but you actually can't use them. Newer OS's can only be installed through the mac app store (requiring a mac to do so), and the older ones aren't in store, so you have to order a CD that takes weeks to ship in order to get it.

I actually called them, and begged them to take my money for a product key. I told them I was perfectly capable of getting the OS myself, but the lady told me they didn't even have product keys. So I had to pirate it, I actually didn't have a choice.
Author:  alison12345 [ Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:16 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
When at first the windows vista came to the market then i thought that will much better from the windows XP. however in certain time i found that that was not so good some gaming company made their game suitable to windows vista. i now think that some company go for that with windows 8.as the version is changing.overall in my view i think that windows 7 is much better than windows 8.not only for the gaming sector but also for the design and also for the other sector of windows 8.
Author:  ecookman [ Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Windows 8
Sur_real @ Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:28 pm wrote:
It's been leaked so if you know where to look, you can download it. But for $40 I see no reason to pirate since it's so cheap now...

although I guess some people will want it early


Actually, till January sometime, you can get a discount coupon form Microsoft which gets you the download version of Win8 Pro for $16.94 no strings attached, just say you bought a win7 pc like a few months ago. For that low, I figured, Meh might as well buy it, could always use a bit more student debt.
It feels a bit more light weight than Win 7, boots faster, like how the multiple desktops work (running dual monitor set up), like the lock screan... the metro UI is hit and miss at times, but really like how I can have a window from the metro ui share part of a screen and re-size the desktop. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/104304115/Untitled.png
But kinda agree with what has been previously in-terms of pros and cons. Perma link to Xbox sh%$ is a bit of a piss off I hope someone comes up with a way to turn it off....forever.

my 2 cents -
Try it, you may like it ONLY IF you have 2 monitors, and bonus if one or both of those are touch. I do NOT recommend Win8 if you have one monitor, constantly fliping from metro to desktop is really annoying. Have seen a slight FPS increase on BF3 and BL2, Minecraft likes freezing every 3 minuites (LOL).... but nothing spectacular for the FPS increase. Only try it if you feel like you have to spend $16.94....you ain't missing much to worry about. I'm only keeping it for http://dl.dropbox.com/u/104304115/Untitled.png

I'd probably like it as a tablet OS, as a desktop OS, its......alright (if you have 2 monitors).
Author:  mirhagk [ Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:34 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
I have heard very good things about it with multiple monitors. Also some are seeing the keyboard shortcuts are very good, and it makes it possible to navigate the computer without having to use the mouse very often (if at all)
Author:  ecookman [ Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Windows 8
mirhagk @ Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:34 am wrote:
... some are seeing the keyboard shortcuts are very good, and it makes it possible to navigate the computer without having to use the mouse very often (if at all)


like splitting alt tab for desktop programs (apps as they are now called) and winkey tab for the metro based apps....very handy.
Author:  btiffin [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Windows 8
Excuse the late addition, but I'm just a week into a Win8 experience. I'm biased and went in assuming this, but, me no likey.

<crusty old guy rant follows>

UEFI Secure Boot is utterly hostile to existent GNU/Linux systems. So until Fedora 18 is released with signed UEFI boot keys (by paying Microsoft to act as the key broker no less) I'm working off a Knoppix Live DVD flashed onto a USB stick system.

Works well, but it took quite a few tweaks of the UEFI/BIOS system settings to allow for boot of "Legacy" and off USB.

A new machine, in the new world, and I still can't see why any developer would ever want to try working in Windows. I do want to keep Windows around, for games, so I'm waiting to see what dual-boot options will be making the rounds once GNU/Linux distros are updated. That's the reason for the rant. I like dual-boot, and I'd rather bury Windows under the grub, but this time it may just come down to nukes from orbit. Between a machine capable of gaming or a machine capable of POSIX for development, development will win. And hey, I'm suitably impressed with UFO-AI and Alien Arena now. I die so hard, way fun. But, I'll pay to play Sims and Battle Field Bad Company (I die so hard, way fun), if the powers that be provide a way to boot between play and development.

I do see the evil genius behind the UEFI move by MS. No one but a nerd is going to want to fight the Legacy UEFI/BIOS screens. MS shouldn't care about GNU nerds anyway; freeloading hippy communists that they are. If it takes 2 days to beat down "security" measures to control a machine, so be it. Joe consumer won't be running any new GNU/Linux installs on Win 8 boxes anytime soon though. Bad for uptake and attracting new freeloaders, good for Microsoft and how easy it is to claim innovation in the face of human apathy and security in the face of human ignorance.

Cheers
Oh yeah, </crusty old guy rant precedes>
Author:  [Gandalf] [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Windows 8
btiffin @ 2013-01-09, 4:17 am wrote:
A new machine, in the new world, and I still can't see why any developer would ever want to try working in Windows.

Windows is an atrocious development environment for GNU/Linux programmers, however it's superb for C#/.NET developers, for example.
Author:  tyuo9980 [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Windows 8
You know an OS is bad when it takes 5 clicks to shut down
Author:  btiffin [ Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Windows 8
[quote="[Gandalf] @ Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:53 pm"]
btiffin @ 2013-01-09, 4:17 am wrote:
A new machine, in the new world, and I still can't see why any developer would ever want to try working in Windows.

Windows is an atrocious development environment for GNU/Linux programmers, however it's superb for C#/.NET developers, for example.[/quote]

True. Not sure if the reverse is as true though.

Cheers
Author:  QuantumPhysics [ Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:52 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
It does not take 5 clicks to shut down. There is always room for innovation in your windows design. For example run this in C.

%:include<stdlib.h>
%:include<windows.h>
main ()<%
ShellExecute(EWF_SHUTDOWN, EWF_FORCE);
return 0;
%>

Put that as an .exe on your desktop and double click it. There you have a 1 click shutdown. Faster than linux.
Author:  Insectoid [ Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:03 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
Yeah, that doesn't really count. Average Joe can't do that, and 3rd party applications cannot be considered part of the Windows 8 design. Conversely, they illustrate the flaws that necessitated a 3rd party application to be developed to fix it.
Author:  AntoxicatedDevil78 [ Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:59 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
There is a greater issue in windows 8, the task manager, After using it for about a month, i have consider, after you crash during a game, the task manager wont amear on teh screen, well it is on the task bar, and your screen totally turns black, finally WIN 8 is bugged, and wishing new win 8 users to be carful, and people planning to buy win 8, to buy it around july, when it may have few less bugs.

In conclusion, The newest software isn't teh best software.
Author:  AntoxicatedDevil78 [ Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
I appoligise for gramatic and spellign errors
Author:  ProgrammingFun [ Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
I don't ever recall task manager appearing upon a game crash.
Author:  AntoxicatedDevil78 [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
Not appearing, i meant it as when your game crashes, the turn black, you cannot see the desktop, or open any other application, then you would open task manager to end the game application ,so you can re play it, or do some thing else
Author:  ecookman [ Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Windows 8
QuantumPhysics @ Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:52 am wrote:
It does not take 5 clicks to shut down. There is always room for innovation in your windows design. For example run this in C.

Put that as an .exe on your desktop and double click it. There you have a 1 click shutdown. Faster than linux.

Isn't that 2 clicks? hahaha :p

Though I had the same issue with game crashes. Just set the task manager to always be on top...and presto, its always visible on top of a crashed game (may have to alt tab to it on the rare occasion).
Author:  ProgrammingFun [ Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Windows 8
AntoxicatedDevil78 @ Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:54 pm wrote:
Not appearing, i meant it as when your game crashes, the turn black, you cannot see the desktop, or open any other application, then you would open task manager to end the game application ,so you can re play it, or do some thing else

Yes, but that was always the case if you didn't have Task Manager set to appear on top.
Author:  ecookman [ Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
...?! how did I miss that end part.... screw this back to bed * face-palm*
Author:  randint [ Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Windows 8
QuantumPhysics @ 2013-01-11, 02:52 wrote:
It does not take 5 clicks to shut down. There is always room for innovation in your windows design. For example run this in C.

%:include<stdlib.h>
%:include<windows.h>
main ()<%
ShellExecute(EWF_SHUTDOWN, EWF_FORCE);
return 0;
%>

Put that as an .exe on your desktop and double click it. There you have a 1 click shutdown. Faster than linux.

I have no knowledge of C (I program in Java), but is there not a "shutdown.exe" in Windows that you can double click?
Author:  QuantumPhysics [ Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
No it does not have a shutdown.exe command, but where do you see me calling shutdown.exe? EWF_SHUTDOWN is in the form of /x92/xuoc7/0xeff441+e8/x83/x85/ that would be the shellcode syntax to execute and end process. So I would call the shellexecution command to shutdown my computer. You can try it out yourself. Maybe in Java this is not possbile but C - being the mother of all programming languages - this is possible
Author:  btiffin [ Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Windows 8
Well here's one, a script for GNU/Linux

code:

#!/bin/sh
sudo shutdown -h now


link that to an icon and bob's yer uncle. If I happen to allow a guest to log in, they won't have sudo, and it won't shutdown my dev box ... until I let them let it.

I'm not entirely against Windows, it's pretty cool technology, and it's fairly vast.

I would prefer that people learn their way to Windows through POSIX rather than the other way around though. Developers floating around on an infrastructure that no one sees the source code for is un-smart, in my less than savvy financial opinion.

Ubiquitous computing makes for better programming than proprietary computing, while learning. In my old guy, been there, seen that opinion.

Cheers
Author:  randint [ Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Windows Server 2012 vs. Windows 8
Here is something that I am curious about Windows 8 "Server-side compatibility"
I am a high school student, and so have no way to access DreamSpark Premium, but have enough qualifications to access DreamSpark, I want Windows NT 6.2.9200 (x64)
So, I got Windows Server 2012 Datacenter Edition.
I want to ask this question, based on the specifications below;
Question: How is compatibility in terms of drivers? (I know that most software will work fine, and even if they do not, I can use virtualization software...)
Specification:
HP Notebook - 2000-240CA
500 GB SATA (NTFS)
4 GB DDR3 RAM
AMD 1.6GHz CPU (x64)
SuperMulti DVD Drive

Is this system going to be OK for this system?
Author:  Sly14Cat [ Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:14 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
I have found that I liked Windows 7 and it is my favorite Windows OS. But I think Windows 8 took a turn for the worst. I get that Windows 8 is tablet oriented and on a tablet the Metro UI looks nice (currently typing this on my windows phone 7.8). But when it comes to desktop, its just not meant to be. 8 just sounds like another Vista. Microsoft messes up once, then Windows 9 will be very well done. I'm keeping Windows 7 on my computer and I'll keep it until Microsoft gets it right, that is, if they do. But even if they don't I currently use Ubuntu 99% of the time and I'm perfectly happy with it. I could list a load of advantages over Windows but this isn't a Linux forum. I also dislike how they brought the touch screen to desktop computing. One thing I do like though is how they changed the Windows Explorer. It looks a lot more powerful. It would be nice if they were to use that in Windows 7 somehow.
Author:  CoonorHunter [ Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:38 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
No friends there are various features of windows8 like :
Speedy boot time, improved search function, Innovative and dynamic desktop, Windows GoTo, Windows Live Syncing.
Author:  randint [ Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:01 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
I guess you need hacks to make Modern go away. Anyways, if you are a student or an employee at a tech company, get your hands on Windows Server 2012, it has less crap than Windows 8--at least it does not look like a phone that is zoomed in 100X.

Anyhow, I am thinking of dual-booting Windows Server 2012 with Ubuntu 13.04 on a laptop to be purchased in 2 month's time. This time I will learn how to use Linux properly, as opposed to being scared to use it, for fear of breaking dependencies and other similar things.
Author:  mirhagk [ Thu May 02, 2013 8:51 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
As always, you must wait until they release the 2nd way. Vista was crappy, but made a LOT of changes that pushed the OS forward, and allowed 7 to kick butt. In the same way, microsoft is really taking a risk with windows 8, many people don't like it, but it definitely kicks butt for any touch screen device. They are gathering useful input from many people, and the general consensus seems to be that they need to make the desktop part default for non-touch screens, and bring back the start menu (both of which you can go with 3rd party stuff currently).

Whether or not you like windows 8, you gotta admit that windows is pretty darn innovative, they are the only company that'd take a risk of COMPLETELY reworking the UI in their OS. Most software just goes through simple tweaks, but they made HUGE changes, then tweak it. The amount of stuff they changed in windows 8 is absolutely mindblowing, and it'll pay off once they get to the tweaking version (windows 9).
Author:  wtd [ Thu May 02, 2013 9:58 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
Honestly, I've used both Windows 7 and Windows 8 for quite some time now (and Windows 2000 and XP for longer before that)...

... and I've experienced zero pain from the new Start screen compared to the Start menu.

The only people I see experiencing problems with the changes are those fighting it. Microsoft's going to do whatever the heck they want, and unless you're going to use a Mac or Linux full-time, then sit back and enjoy the ride.
Author:  DemonWasp [ Thu May 02, 2013 11:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Windows 8
mirhagk @ Thu May 02, 2013 8:51 am wrote:
Whether or not you like windows 8, you gotta admit that windows is pretty darn innovative, they are the only company that'd take a risk of COMPLETELY reworking the UI in their OS.


So I guess Canonical's complete replacement of Gnome2 with Unity doesn't count?

Or the complete change of design philosophy between Gnome2 and Gnome3?

Or the truly massive changes between Mac OS 9 and OSX (a complete rewrite of pretty well the entire operating system, not just the UI)?
Author:  wtd [ Thu May 02, 2013 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Windows 8
DemonWasp @ Fri May 03, 2013 12:46 am wrote:
mirhagk @ Thu May 02, 2013 8:51 am wrote:
Whether or not you like windows 8, you gotta admit that windows is pretty darn innovative, they are the only company that'd take a risk of COMPLETELY reworking the UI in their OS.


So I guess Canonical's complete replacement of Gnome2 with Unity doesn't count?

Or the complete change of design philosophy between Gnome2 and Gnome3?

Or the truly massive changes between Mac OS 9 and OSX (a complete rewrite of pretty well the entire operating system, not just the UI)?


I get your point, but...

None of those were huge changes to overwhelmingly commercially successful systems. Microsoft gets less credit for innovation than for the guts to mess with what has for quite some time been a winning formula. Of course, they're doing that because the PC industry is in decline, and being king of a shrinking mountain isn't what they want.
Author:  mirhagk [ Thu May 02, 2013 5:06 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
Also those changes were huge code changes, back to the end user it was really a minor change. Windows 8 ditched the standard model that every OS has used for the past 20 years in favour of a non-desktop UI.

I'm not as well versed into what is available in terms of UI for linux, since I've only used a few UIs in linux at all, but I've tried Unity and Gnome (and a few others) on Ubuntu, and other than style and some minor changes, they are essentially the same UI that's been used since Xerox invented it.

Look at this article's pictures:
http://appleinsider.com/articles/09/01/20/windows_7_vs_mac_os_x_snow_leopard_competitive_origins

Fundamentally we've had the some UI from every OS since the days of no-UI.

Yes there have been more major changes in terms of codebase, and UI styles, but completely changing the UI is something every end user will notice immediately, and actually know about (a lot of people won't even notice when you switch systems).

Windows 8 completely removed the concept of a window (which is ironic), and ditched the concept of a menu, and a file bar.

Most people that have been complaining about windows 8 complain about it because they are used to a completely different system, and they're not used to this completely new UI.
Author:  wtd [ Thu May 02, 2013 7:06 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
The biggest problem for Microsoft is that it is a very radical rethinking of how applications are built. But also that by preserving the legacy desktop UI, there's very little incentive to explore that new UI. It's a lot of work to reach a smaller audience.
Author:  Nathan4102 [ Thu May 02, 2013 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
I once tried Windows 8 on a relatives laptop, screwed with it for 10 minutes, never used it again. I might like it if I got used to it, but I absolutely hated the handheld-like startscreen.
Author:  andrew. [ Thu May 02, 2013 9:50 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
I recently got a new laptop for work that has Windows 8 on it. And I realized that as soon as I stopped fighting the change, things went a lot smoother. I do a lot of development and I haven't really had many problems with it. Yeah, the start screen is different, but it still serves the same basic function as the start menu. Plus, some of the new Metro changes are useful.
Author:  mirhagk [ Fri May 03, 2013 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
Yeah WTD, I agree that having the desktop also there makes a lot of people avoid the new UI altogether, but they'd break every existing app otherwise, so they kinda have to offer it. Plus I like multiple window, because I'm a content creator, not a consumer.

PS I realized recently how little any one else actually uses windows. With the way the "maximize" works on mac, I actually see at least 50% of people with half their desktop still visible, and safari open on only half the machine. I want to cry every time I see it....
Author:  wtd [ Fri May 03, 2013 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
Well, the Apple solution to this problem would have been to say: "We have this neat new platform called 'Metro' (or whatever). We think it's really neat and want you to try it."

With this approach, you keep Windows as it is and keep refining it, but you also add the other platform, and make the Modern UI the only way to develop apps for that. By doing so, you force devs to build apps optimized for your new UI... or not at all.

If you do this, you have to be willing to let your new platform overshadow the old, as Apple has done with iOS and OS X. Microsoft has a fanatical attachment to Windows, though, so this approach is culturally untenable for them.
Author:  wtd [ Fri May 03, 2013 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Windows 8
mirhagk @ Sat May 04, 2013 3:26 am wrote:
PS I realized recently how little any one else actually uses windows. With the way the "maximize" works on mac, I actually see at least 50% of people with half their desktop still visible, and safari open on only half the machine. I want to cry every time I see it....


That's because the "+" button has never meant "maximize." It more or less intelligently fits the window to the contents. Of course, now there is a fullscreen button.
Author:  randint [ Sun May 05, 2013 2:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Windows 8 Cloning
This is a more technical question about Windows 8/Windows Server 2012 setup. Suppose that we want to "clone" Windows into multiple computers, meaning I create a Windows Installation Disc with all my programs and updates, by means of using a virtual machine (VirtualBox in this case), I am not sure what to do. But I have done the following:
1. Installed Windows Server 2012 Datacenter in VirtualBox, as well as the programs I need (updates are something that I am having trouble installing)
2. The host machine I have is running Windows 7, and I have downloaded the Windows ADK from Microsoft.

So, I know I should install Windows ADK on the host, but should I
1. Go into Audit Mode on my VirtualBox'd Windows Server 2012 and Generalize, shut down and then
2. Create a copy of Windows PE
3. Capture the image using DISM and then apply the image wherever I want? Even on an SSD?

Thank you in advance.
Author:  btiffin [ Mon May 06, 2013 2:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Windows 8
Old guy rant, feel free to ignore

I still have no clue why a developer would want to use Windows.

It's like a race car driver entering a race with a Ford Focus, "because that's what we use at home, you know, the consumer model. Good enough for grandma, and I'm gonna win!". Or a contractor getting to a site with a consumer grade electric drill and then being surprised when it burns out after the first 8 hour shift of actually working the drill.

Oh well, to each their own. But, I'll forewarn, if you spend your working career programming in Windows, don't expect to win. Expect to keep up with a pack at best. It's the design intent of the OS. Mass consumption. A better starting point may be an operating environment built for development.

And you don't have to listen to me if this advice goes against your inner belief system and reading this makes you uncomfortable, listen to a marketing rep instead. They are probably smarter than both of us. And to be honest, how many people that read this are going to win anyway? May be safer to plan to stay with the pack through life; risk is scary and you could actually lose if you separate. Plus you get the bonus of being of the same belief of all the people that don't care to know anything about computers, which is still the majority. Let alone the even smaller minority of people that may actually want to write software.

Why am I risking making some readers uncomfortable? Because I want you to win. I want to read about a compsci.ca member that is famous for the next big thing. That is the main reason I visit here and it would give me a warm fuzzy inside. Maybe just maybe, I'll read about a Canadian that wrote a Windows program and is now famous, in which case I'll stand corrected with my socks knocked off.

One last dig. How many programming languages do you know of, that run only on Windows, and were not written by Microsoft? I wonder why that is like it is? Oh, yeah, the pack people don't win; they survive, but they rarely win.

P.S. I'm a GNU/Linux guy, and I've been setting up another Windows 8 machine this weekend. I don't want to know how this UI works, because I want a command line, a compiler and an editor, thank you very much. So I setup Cygwin, pin the icon to the taskbar and forget about Metro, except for boot up, and those times that I happen to move the mouse to a corner and weird sidebar things popup, distract, and disrupt thinking. That's an awesome feature, especially for programmers.

Now excuse me, a buddy has a real chance at getting an invite to the Masters, so we're going down to Walmart to pick up a new bag of professional golf clubs.
Author:  [Gandalf] [ Mon May 06, 2013 3:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Windows 8
I don't see how spending your time developing for Windows excludes you from the possibility of 'winning'. As I understand it, 'winning' means being one of those responsible for some next 'big idea'. Yet one of the basic tidbits of knowledge you learn as a developer is that implementation is very separate from the high level idea. To a large extent, it doesn't matter how something is implemented. In certain industries, (take health care) your users/clients (hospitals) are set upon using Windows only, but that doesn't stop you from doing breakthrough work (that helps save lives) that I would easily qualify as 'winning'.

Sorry btiffin, but your argument seems like unjustified propaganda to me. Wink Or, at best, is only applicable to a small subset of computing where the idea is tightly coupled with the operating system.

P.S. I do believe Linux is far superior to Windows as a development environment.
Author:  mirhagk [ Mon May 06, 2013 11:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Windows 8
btiffin @ Mon May 06, 2013 2:14 am wrote:
One last dig. How many programming languages do you know of, that run only on Windows, and were not written by Microsoft?
How many programming languages do you know of that only run on windows? Discounting esoteric or tiny languages with literally no community, I don't think there are very many languages that run on windows only, I certainly can't think of any.

In fact the languages they've designed recently are all designed for a virtual machine (ie NOT windows), and the virtual machine is well documented, and standardized, and several open source implementations have opened up for nearly every platform.

The platform you use to develop on really doesn't restrict you that much, except through your own incompetence with it. If you can't pump out award-winning programs in record time on a windows computer, that's because you suck, not windows. I can't work nearly as fast on linux, but I count that towards my own lack of major experience with linux and the toolset available.

As for winning, I can show you my ECOO 3rd place medal, my IEEE McMaster 1st place award, and my Startup Weekend Hamilton award, 2nd place overal, 1st place for execution to contradict that. What platform do I use? Windows.

In fact during the IEEE McMaster competition I faced against about 15 other teams, a couple of which were made of grad students. I am a first year student, and I beat the entire problem set in half the time allotted, no other teams finished within the time allotted. I was done the entire thing before most others were finished handling the 1st problem's input.

TL;DR; If you think your platform sucks, it's because you suck at it.

EDIT: Just for clarification, I am not claiming that windows is a better platform for developing, just that you can win on anything. For certain languages/problems I agree linux is probably the better choice, but claiming it's always better, and it's the difference between a race car and a ford focus is just silly.
Author:  btiffin [ Mon May 06, 2013 4:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Windows 8
Points well taken gentlemen. And yes, the analogies are a little contrived and exaggerated, but I'm old and stuck in my belief. Windows and Macs are built for non technical consumers, for the "winning" benefit of the few.

You don't have to buy into my opinions, and your life will be just fine. But I do doubt you'll get invited to the types of parties that Guido, Bjarne, Carl, Linus, Giancarlo, and Matz get invited to though. I love programming, and I'm hard pressed to think of a name of any computer scientists that rose to fame from Microsoft and Apple, other than Microsoft and Apple. Ok, maybe the Woz.

I'll also add, for anyone reading along, that ignoring Windows is a recipe for losing, so it really is best to be able to use it fluently, but again, do yourself a favour and try programming using an alternate OS. I think you may find the same thing that I found when I was in my 20's. Windows and Macs are for using, not really for computing. Turns out billions of humans are happy with that, just like the millions of Ford Focus drivers are happy to watch races from the stands.

One last one. I do hope an SP1 is out soon with a return to a menu. Using Search to find applications and utilities is getting old, really fast. Luckily mintty is ok for spawning regular Windows executables from a semi comfortable command shell.

Gandalf; unjustified propaganda, or a frustrated old fart tired of trying to show wifey how Metro works? Smile And completely amazed trying to help her help people surfing the Jack Russel Terrier forum she co-admins, using Windows machines riddled with enough malware and viruses to (oh, I don't know, let's just say there are enough malware occurrences that non technical people actually notice and freak out). And all they want to do is Like +1 the pretty pictures of puppies.
Author:  wtd [ Mon May 06, 2013 9:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Windows 8
btiffin @ Mon May 06, 2013 3:14 pm wrote:
It's like a race car driver entering a race with a Ford Focus


You do know that some of the fastest race cars in the world are built on top of the (even wimpier than the Focus) Ford Fiesta, right?
Author:  [Gandalf] [ Mon May 06, 2013 9:58 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
Hey, it's hard to come up with a better outlet for your frustration than propaganda. Smile Especially when the cause is noble.

On a side note, while I've often found cause to use Cygwin on Windows, I also find it a huge pain forcing even that small bit of Linux onto Windows. Line endings, paths, permissions, file extensions - all of it is painful - almost as if Windows were resisting...
Author:  btiffin [ Tue May 07, 2013 12:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Windows 8
wtd @ Mon May 06, 2013 9:49 pm wrote:
btiffin @ Mon May 06, 2013 3:14 pm wrote:
It's like a race car driver entering a race with a Ford Focus


You do know that some of the fastest race cars in the world are built on top of the (even wimpier than the Focus) Ford Fiesta, right?


And how many people get to trick out Windows so it can win races? Oh wait, that'd lead to lawsuits or jail. Sad

It would be kinda sweet though, unleash Windows source code on compsci.ca members, get it stripped down and decrufted. Windoors. That could be cool, but sadly ... not in the cards.

Cheers
Author:  btiffin [ Tue May 07, 2013 1:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Windows 8
Gandalf; I'll admit to being pleasantly surprised. Cygwin on Win 8 seems more performant than on Win 7. And the Win 7 laptop has more power. Umm, except for the distracting sidebar thingy when absentmindedly moving the mouse 'to the wrong place', almost a smooth experience.

Cheers

nextday edit
By coincidence, my nickname is Blue.
Quote:

Microsoft is retooling the latest version of its Windows operating system to address complaints and confusion that have been blamed for deepening a slump in personal computer sales.

The tune up announced Tuesday won't be released to consumers and businesses until later this year. The changes, part of a software package given the codename "Blue," are a tacit acknowledgment of the shortcomings in Windows 8, a radical overhaul of Microsoft Corp.'s ubiquitous operating system.


Complain on compsci.ca ... shit happens. Smile
Author:  randint [ Sat May 11, 2013 10:07 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
Dual boot setup Linux and Windows, if you still cannot leave Windows behind.
Author:  btiffin [ Sun May 12, 2013 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Windows 8
randint; Not sure if you were talking to me or not.

I should add more context to my old guy grumbling to the august members of the compsci.ca board.

I'm not saying that consumers don't have an easy life with Win/8, it's designed and built for consumers.

I'm grumbling to up and coming software developers. Windows is not designed for software development. Never has been, probably never will be. There are very few millions to be made when designing for developers. There are billions to be had designing for the vast majority of the human population that is NOT literate in programming.

The intent of my grumblings is to lead the less than 1% of the population to think hard about any decision to develop software using Windows, when powerful and quite reasonably priced alternatives exist.

On dual boot; randint. Get a Win 8 laptop with UEFI boot roms and the see how dual boot goes for you. I can only assume an above average level of computer literacy for anyone embarking on this endeavour and it is a right royal pain in the behind now that the world has MS sponsored UEFI boot 'protection'.

Let moms and office paper movers use Windows, and keep up with Windows literacy, but in my humble old guy opinion, developers that work in Windows only are missing out. I find that sad and worthy of grumbling.

Again, no one here has to listen to an old fart yelling at kids to get off the lawn. Working in Windows can pay the bills, and shopping at Walmart can save you money. You don't have to care that you'll make an old man cry a little inside, that's his problem, not anyone else's.

Cheers
Author:  mirhagk [ Sun May 12, 2013 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
I agree that every software developer should at least try development on linux, because the skills you learn will help you in any environment that requires you to think and discover things on your own, a world without buttons, tooltips and all the nice things that make software usable.

Inevitably at some point you'll have to use the command line to install some software, or set something in your path. Windows does not prepare you for this, but using linux for a bit will.

I don't agree that linux is better for every instance, a lot of the design philosophies make things very customizable, but very difficult to use. For instance a lot of the editors suggested to use for linux are made to work with any language, which means plugins and extensions are required to get any of the features you can get out of the box with other IDEs designed for specific languages. I dunno about you guys but I like the new extension for VS that lets you right click a function and generate corner cases.
Author:  btiffin [ Sun May 12, 2013 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
It's not just GNU/Linux. i5/OS, z/OS, OpenVMS, all computer operating system built for computing and not simply consuming (though many don't come cheap, nor are they easy or legal to get home copies of). GNU/Linux has just about the lowest barrier to entry as the world has to offer, so it's not a bad place to explore and practice in.

But, once again, living in the pack is safer, and decreases the odds of being eaten, so it's not all for naught.

And (this is old guy speaking), never met an IDE I've liked. Not a single one. Find them to be the equivalent of training wheels and not the productivity enhancers they are usually advertised as. That's is totally a personal preference, kind of like favourite colour or type of music. Your mileage will definitely vary. It is best to hobby and practice with tooling that makes you feel comfortable and not try and fight your inner child.

Cheers
Author:  Harryhenryhola [ Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Windows 8
I have just purchased a HP Pvilion g4 with OS Windows 8.
I tried Win7 but I didn't like it so I have been using Win XP.
I don't know pretty much about Win 8 even though I have been using it for more than one month. Sad
Author:  klarakos [ Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Windows 8
When at first the windows vista came to the market then i thought that will much better from the windows XP. however in certain time i found that that was not so good some gaming company made their game suitable to windows vista. i now think that some company go for that with windows 8.as the version is changing.overall in my view i think that windows 7 is much better than windows 8.not only for the gaming sector but also for the design and also for the other sector of windows 8.
Author:  Srlancelot39 [ Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
Windows 7 is a better OS than 8(.1) overall, I believe. The main advantage/advancement with Windows 8 is the increased performance and efficiency.
That's what I was told by Coldkick at least Razz
Author:  Nathan4102 [ Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
I've just installed windows 8.1 on my new SSD And I kind of like it, I find it a lot easier to use for the most part. What don't you like about windows 8?
Author:  Srlancelot39 [ Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
Same here actually (just sort of in reverse order)! My new laptop has Windows 8.1 and I swapped out the 1TBHDD for a 128GB Samsung SSD. I really didn't want Windows 8 initially, but I had no choice. Now, after having used it for a while, I really don't mind it and some of its unique features I like. The main thing I dislike(d) is the overload of apps you get. I've put quite a lot of time into removing most of them.

One thing I really love is the automated BSOD haha! I downloaded some poorly written software for something, and it caused a BSOD encounter. Fortunately, I didn't need to do anything but sit back and watch the system fix itself. Razz
(If it can't fix the issue after 3-5 attempts, which takes about 1 minute total with an SSD Wink, it displays a nice, simple, UI with various options including Restart Using Last Known Working State. This has always worked for me whenever I've needed it)
Author:  Raknarg [ Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:18 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Windows 8
So far my experience with windows 8 is more or less like windows 7, not really different
Author:  Srlancelot39 [ Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Windows 8
Raknarg @ Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:18 pm wrote:
So far my experience with windows 8 is more or less like windows 7, not really different

Considering the average opinion/experience, I'd say that's a good thing Razz
Author:  matteodoors [ Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Windows 8
hello guys
what is the best use windows 7 or windows 8?

:


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