Comments on: The Disadvantages of High School Programming http://compsci.ca/blog/the-disadvantages-of-high-school-programming/ Programming, Education, Computer Science Wed, 30 Sep 2020 08:31:44 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Johnny http://compsci.ca/blog/the-disadvantages-of-high-school-programming/comment-page-1/#comment-111137 Johnny Wed, 15 Apr 2009 00:29:24 +0000 http://compsci.ca/blog/?p=696#comment-111137 I learned everything I know about programming on my own. It is true that functional programming is very difficult to understand, if you come from an imperative programming background. I took me years to understand Lisp after I first saw it. However, the problem doesn't only occur in high schools. Many American universities have computer science curricula that never cover functional programming. Graduates of these programs are likely to have difficulty if they ever encounter anything like Scheme. The usual response, out in the wild, is to say "Scheme sucks" and dismiss it. Then again, those who finally "get" Scheme but didn't see it during their education are likely to become those annoying, smarmy Lisp zealots. I learned everything I know about programming on my own. It is true that functional programming is very difficult to understand, if you come from an imperative programming background. I took me years to understand Lisp after I first saw it.

However, the problem doesn’t only occur in high schools. Many American universities have computer science curricula that never cover functional programming. Graduates of these programs are likely to have difficulty if they ever encounter anything like Scheme. The usual response, out in the wild, is to say “Scheme sucks” and dismiss it.

Then again, those who finally “get” Scheme but didn’t see it during their education are likely to become those annoying, smarmy Lisp zealots.

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By: Tony http://compsci.ca/blog/the-disadvantages-of-high-school-programming/comment-page-1/#comment-110912 Tony Fri, 20 Mar 2009 04:42:45 +0000 http://compsci.ca/blog/?p=696#comment-110912 It sucks that you've had to go through such an experience, but I'm glad that it hasn't deterred you from pursuing Computer Science in a University. It kind of sounds like your teacher might have tried her best to have some sort of a "computer" class, given her lacking qualifications. Yeah, it went off on a wild tangent, but that's not the worst that I have heard. The thing about the Computer Science curriculum is that it's very vague, simplistic, and unenforced. It might say things like "data structure", and it would be up to a teacher to interpret that as a binary tree, or a simple array (and both would satisfy the "requirement"). Good luck in your upcoming studies :) It sucks that you’ve had to go through such an experience, but I’m glad that it hasn’t deterred you from pursuing Computer Science in a University.

It kind of sounds like your teacher might have tried her best to have some sort of a “computer” class, given her lacking qualifications. Yeah, it went off on a wild tangent, but that’s not the worst that I have heard.

The thing about the Computer Science curriculum is that it’s very vague, simplistic, and unenforced. It might say things like “data structure”, and it would be up to a teacher to interpret that as a binary tree, or a simple array (and both would satisfy the “requirement”).

Good luck in your upcoming studies :)

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By: Punny http://compsci.ca/blog/the-disadvantages-of-high-school-programming/comment-page-1/#comment-110906 Punny Wed, 18 Mar 2009 02:55:59 +0000 http://compsci.ca/blog/?p=696#comment-110906 I also heard something two years ago from another CS teacher. Apparently they are looking to split the ICS courses into an U and a C level. To differentiate the two directions. I also heard something two years ago from another CS teacher. Apparently they are looking to split the ICS courses into an U and a C level. To differentiate the two directions.

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By: Punny http://compsci.ca/blog/the-disadvantages-of-high-school-programming/comment-page-1/#comment-110905 Punny Wed, 18 Mar 2009 02:54:34 +0000 http://compsci.ca/blog/?p=696#comment-110905 (sorry for reviving an older post!) I am a current Gr.12 Ontario student (going into CS in the fall) who has been been through this messy high school system. My particular situation was so ridiculous, it's almost laughable. My first experience with CS was at the Gr.10 level with an introductory course (TIK20). I attend a full year system, so things progress at a slower rate. Our particular CS teacher decided to retire in November, we had less than 1/4 of the material covered. The replacement teacher was a extremely nice teacher who was a science teacher. Our old CS teacher stayed for two weeks to guide her on what to do with our class, we all assumed that she knew what she was doing because she was apparently qualified to replace our old teacher in all of his current classes (Science, Math AND CS). However, that was not the case. It wasn't that she was not advanced with the field, she couldn't even point out where the motherboard was in the opened case. I must repeat that she is a wonderful person and an excellent science and mathematics teacher, but she was no where NEAR qualified to teach our CS class. I guess I should blame this problem on school administration and the way the way our school board policy on who should be hired. But the problem does not end there. Due to her lack of knowledge in the field, she decides to come up with a plan so that we can at least get some work done. Imagine the surprised look on our faces when we walked into the computer lab, to find a tutorial on how to apply makeup on a girl using Photoshop Elements! The rest of the course took a drastic turn. We edited images for the rest of the year. I often wondered if she is even allowed change the course curriculum as a teacher. I brought it up with one of our vice principals, but it was ignored and I really didn't know who else to talk to. I think the point of my long story is that (at least in my school board, the TDSB) it seems computer science is not in high demand outside the technical schools. And as a result, some teachers who are teaching cs may not even be qualified to teach it. I heard from one of my math teacher (who was originally a computer science teacher but switched into the math department) that it is not uncommon for a science or a math teacher with no experience and/or qualifications in computer science, to be teaching courses at the high school level, largely because the amount of staff a school can maintain, and it is unconventional to hire just a "computer science" teacher when the science or mathematics department of said school does not require more teachers. (sorry for reviving an older post!)

I am a current Gr.12 Ontario student (going into CS in the fall) who has been been through this messy high school system. My particular situation was so ridiculous, it’s almost laughable.
My first experience with CS was at the Gr.10 level with an introductory course (TIK20). I attend a full year system, so things progress at a slower rate. Our particular CS teacher decided to retire in November, we had less than 1/4 of the material covered.

The replacement teacher was a extremely nice teacher who was a science teacher. Our old CS teacher stayed for two weeks to guide her on what to do with our class, we all assumed that she knew what she was doing because she was apparently qualified to replace our old teacher in all of his current classes (Science, Math AND CS).

However, that was not the case.
It wasn’t that she was not advanced with the field, she couldn’t even point out where the motherboard was in the opened case. I must repeat that she is a wonderful person and an excellent science and mathematics teacher, but she was no where NEAR qualified to teach our CS class.

I guess I should blame this problem on school administration and the way the way our school board policy on who should be hired. But the problem does not end there. Due to her lack of knowledge in the field, she decides to come up with a plan so that we can at least get some work done.

Imagine the surprised look on our faces when we walked into the computer lab, to find a tutorial on how to apply makeup on a girl using Photoshop Elements! The rest of the course took a drastic turn. We edited images for the rest of the year. I often wondered if she is even allowed change the course curriculum as a teacher. I brought it up with one of our vice principals, but it was ignored and I really didn’t know who else to talk to.

I think the point of my long story is that (at least in my school board, the TDSB) it seems computer science is not in high demand outside the technical schools. And as a result, some teachers who are teaching cs may not even be qualified to teach it. I heard from one of my math teacher (who was originally a computer science teacher but switched into the math department) that it is not uncommon for a science or a math teacher with no experience and/or qualifications in computer science, to be teaching courses at the high school level, largely because the amount of staff a school can maintain, and it is unconventional to hire just a “computer science” teacher when the science or mathematics department of said school does not require more teachers.

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By: Michael Chang http://compsci.ca/blog/the-disadvantages-of-high-school-programming/comment-page-1/#comment-110230 Michael Chang Tue, 09 Dec 2008 22:49:17 +0000 http://compsci.ca/blog/?p=696#comment-110230 I was talking to my ICS4M teacher a few weeks ago, and I believe he noted a few things: - AP may drop the Computer Science AB exam (leaving only the CS A exam), and - that ICS4M might be called ICS4U next year (and feature a ever-so-supposedly-slightly different curriculum). I was talking to my ICS4M teacher a few weeks ago, and I believe he noted a few things:
- AP may drop the Computer Science AB exam (leaving only the CS A exam), and
- that ICS4M might be called ICS4U next year (and feature a ever-so-supposedly-slightly different curriculum).

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By: Alex http://compsci.ca/blog/the-disadvantages-of-high-school-programming/comment-page-1/#comment-110121 Alex Mon, 24 Nov 2008 20:54:12 +0000 http://compsci.ca/blog/?p=696#comment-110121 We're still using Ready to Program.. I wish they would switch the curriculum, so that we use Netbeans/Eclipse, or Python. We’re still using Ready to Program.. I wish they would switch the curriculum, so that we use Netbeans/Eclipse, or Python.

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By: Nick http://compsci.ca/blog/the-disadvantages-of-high-school-programming/comment-page-1/#comment-110082 Nick Thu, 20 Nov 2008 04:30:36 +0000 http://compsci.ca/blog/?p=696#comment-110082 My highschool CS teacher (grades 10 and 11) had an efficient method of grading programs and also stayed away from making the course that 91% free credit. For marking he'd actually read the code, check for useful comments, look at the thought put into the code, the functionality, and a non-compilable code didn't mean a 0%, as long as the code was going somewhere it never got to. Also, I had the highest mark in grade 11 with a 87% and I was one of the only ones who actually knew waht I was doing, the average was around a 50-60% if I recall correctly. All in all, great blag. My highschool CS teacher (grades 10 and 11) had an efficient method of grading programs and also stayed away from making the course that 91% free credit. For marking he’d actually read the code, check for useful comments, look at the thought put into the code, the functionality, and a non-compilable code didn’t mean a 0%, as long as the code was going somewhere it never got to. Also, I had the highest mark in grade 11 with a 87% and I was one of the only ones who actually knew waht I was doing, the average was around a 50-60% if I recall correctly. All in all, great blag.

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By: Ross (Software Developer) http://compsci.ca/blog/the-disadvantages-of-high-school-programming/comment-page-1/#comment-109988 Ross (Software Developer) Wed, 12 Nov 2008 19:19:12 +0000 http://compsci.ca/blog/?p=696#comment-109988 I agree and disagree. On my course at university there were a hell of a lot of people turn up who had never written a line of code ever and when reality hit decided it wasn't what they wanted to do. Sure you can be taught badly and pick up bad habits but surely it is better to have a taster before you arrive at university. The whole point of a university course is to go in to a subject in great detail and this is the proper place to loose those bad habbits you have learnt. I agree and disagree. On my course at university there were a hell of a lot of people turn up who had never written a line of code ever and when reality hit decided it wasn’t what they wanted to do.

Sure you can be taught badly and pick up bad habits but surely it is better to have a taster before you arrive at university. The whole point of a university course is to go in to a subject in great detail and this is the proper place to loose those bad habbits you have learnt.

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By: Matthew http://compsci.ca/blog/the-disadvantages-of-high-school-programming/comment-page-1/#comment-109883 Matthew Tue, 04 Nov 2008 06:26:25 +0000 http://compsci.ca/blog/?p=696#comment-109883 I took Computer Science AB my senior year of high school. I have to say I was very well prepared for college. I had a wonderful teacher who decided that teaching for the AP test wasn't necessarily the most important thing he should have been doing. I took Computer Science AB my senior year of high school. I have to say I was very well prepared for college. I had a wonderful teacher who decided that teaching for the AP test wasn’t necessarily the most important thing he should have been doing.

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By: Liam http://compsci.ca/blog/the-disadvantages-of-high-school-programming/comment-page-1/#comment-109807 Liam Mon, 27 Oct 2008 14:53:23 +0000 http://compsci.ca/blog/?p=696#comment-109807 I agree with many of the issues you are putting forward. As an undergraduate, I understand what you're talking about. The "get it to work" idea is all too common. I find that lectures consist of mainly just getting a program to work, and not teaching the workings of the program. This has left many people behind in my course. I agree with many of the issues you are putting forward.

As an undergraduate, I understand what you’re talking about. The “get it to work” idea is all too common. I find that lectures consist of mainly just getting a program to work, and not teaching the workings of the program.
This has left many people behind in my course.

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